One assertion that one often hears about Swedish-speaking Finns is that we are dying out, caught in a relentless downwards spiral of decline, and that somehow inevitably we will eventually disappear. Whilst times may feel increasingly hard for the Swedish language in Finland, such assertions are false.
In fact, according to the latest statistics the population of Swedish-speakers in Finland is increasing. Today we are slightly more than 290 000 and according to a population prognosis, we will pass 300 000 in around 15 years time. This is clear from an article in Hufvudstadsbladet. The newspaper spoke with Fjalar Finnäs who has recently produced a statistical report on the situation of Swedish-speaking Finns. Finnäs is a professor of demography at Åbo akademi university.
Until 2005, it was true that we were in decline but today more Swedish-speakers are being born than are dying. The reason for the previous decline was that so many Swedish-speaking Finns emigrated to Sweden during the 1950s and 1960s. It’s well known that many Finns moved to Sweden during this period, but it is often overlooked that Swedish-speakers were massively over-represented amongst them. Some estimates state that as many as 25% of all the Finns that moved to Sweden during this period were Swedish-speaking (a much higher proportion than amongst Finland’s population).
Another reason why the population is today increasing is an increasing tendency amongst mixed language group couples to register their children as Swedish-speaking rather than Finnish-speaking.
As a proportion of the population, Swedish-speaking Finns have decreased to around 5,4% of the population. The number of Finnish-speaking Finns has also decreased as a percentage of Finland’s total population as the number of speakers of other languages has increased.
Swedish-speakers on average live longer, get divorced less often, have lower unemployment and retire early on sickness pensions less often than the Finnish-speaking population. This also helps the demographic situation of Swedish-speaking Finns.
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Thursday 7.10.10 at 19:36
Timothy Bryan
Good news!
Thursday 7.10.10 at 22:41
Prometo
Perhaps Finland should rejoin the Kingdom of Sweden, change its name to Östland, and remove Finnish entirely as an official language in the new united kingdom. Then you could speak your language from helsingborg to helsingfors to nuorgam. That would fill you with joy, wouldn’t it Jonas?
Friday 8.10.10 at 12:27
Jonas
No Prometo, it would not. I am not sure why you draw that conclusion from this post. But I can speak my mother tongue from Helsingfors to Helsingborg as it is now. I am not sure that there has ever been a Swedish-speaking population in Nuorgam – however, I am sure that the population there benefit greatly from learning Sweden given that they have so many Norwegian visitors (the majority of customers at Alko there are from Norway!).
Friday 8.10.10 at 15:04
Mupp
Prometo is drawing his/her on conclusions and should not jump to hasty conclusions. Finnish is just as valuable as Swedish is.
Saturday 9.10.10 at 9:21
Timothy Bryan
Why would Swedish be any less important in Finland than Finnish? Isn’t it true that Swedish has been spoken there for many hundreds of years?
I really don’t understand any hostility to Swedish, I think it every bit a part of the history of the country that Finnish is. Am I wrong?
Saturday 30.10.10 at 21:30
Donnchadh
How sad that even Finland has its share of bigots and racists.
For those of us living in less progressive parts of Europe, there is a great deal to admire about the Finnish (and Scandinavian) way of doing things. In fact Finland stands in proud contrast to many other Western “democracies” in having done so much to protect the position of a vulnerable minority language community. A significant national achievement – and something any Finn ought to want to boast about.
So why the nasty antipathy and the petty hatred, Prometo? You should be ashamed and embarrassed.
Excellent website, by the way. Keep up the good work.
Thursday 25.11.10 at 19:07
jokuvaan
“So why the nasty antipathy and the petty hatred”
Learn Finnish history and how things are today and everything makes more sense. This site wont give you objective picture, it will only help you to understand how mindset of one side works.
“such assertions are false.”
I only need to go my local grocery to hear this ‘ever growing’ Swedish language, teens(registered as Swedish) talking mix language as they are true bilingual. Those teens are not even realising when they at every turn switch the speaking mode. Most of them will have no special reason to vote for SFP, they will live just fine with their perfect Finnish.
Forcing everybody to study Swedish and wise versa was a massive strategic miscalculation by SFP in the 60′s. Swedish-speaking Finns can now speak Finnish but majority of the nation speaks hardly any Swedish, totally foreign language to them.
Thursday 25.11.10 at 22:13
Donnchadh
Jokuvaan – You don’t make clear what you see as the problem.
Is it that Swedish speakers are using Finnish? Or that young people are adapting both languages in everyday use? Or that the majority of Finnish speakers haven’t mastered Swedish?
Perhaps you feel oppressed by the existence of an ethnic minority which has rights? But why? How does it harm Finnish speakers to accord a degree of respect to fellow citizens? Sounds like nothing more than good manners and basic civilised behaviour to me.
As an external observer I have to say that this is a pretty balanced and objective blog site. Certainly not extremist – in contrast to some of the comments I’ve seen posted. So again, what is the problem? You need to explain.
I have to say that I’m more than familiar with other mindset you mention – that of the bigoted members of a majority population who seem to find the existence of ethnic or linguistic difference an intolerable imposition or personal affront. It really is a nasty and dangerous way of thinking about other human beings.
Friday 26.11.10 at 1:27
jokuvaan
“So again, what is the problem? You need to explain.”
Well, if I skip 800 years of history and give a veeery short review of the main problems today:
1. Compulsory Swedish in all education levels, entire country.
2. Need to know Swedish in all state ‘public service’ jobs.
3. Cost of running current “two official languages” system.
4. Ruthless, arrogant and aggressive style of SFP
5. Ignoring the views of the majority
6. Certain language based university student quotas
7. Many small things, like how ERC’s were located in latest reform
“I have to say that this is a pretty balanced and objective blog site.”
So called objective sites rarely have links to political sites and even more rarely only related mainly to a one single party, in this case: SFP.
Part of the SFP strategy is run around the World to tell everybody how A) splendidly minority issues have been solved and B) how some evil hate people are harassing them.
Just lately, former party boss of SFP said that they where like Jews in 30′s Germany, nevermind that they are considered as most mollycoddled minority in the entire World, by far.
Is there growing hate? Surely there is, no doubt about it. And SFP keeps full offensive on, using some key supporters in other big parties, causing even more hate and frustration. But in the big picture they are losing political support dramatically fast and elections are coming. Without political “godfathers” they are nothing more than a below 5% party.
One considerable issue is that most of the Swedish speakers live in a entirely different reality World than the majority(they read different papers, different school books etc..). It’s like two men pointing fingers at each other and saying simultaneously: “you are crazy!”.
Next week there will be big two hour TV-debate(State-TV) about forced Swedish etc.. I’ll buy some popcorn.
Friday 26.11.10 at 13:59
Jonas
Jokuvaan, it would be interesting if you could explain just how SFP “[forced] everybody to study Swedish… in the 60s”. It was a Centre party-led government that introduced obligatory teaching in the second domestic language (Finnish or Swedish depending on the school’s teaching language). Incidentally, Finnish schools actually introduce teaching of Swedish very late in their students’ careers and devote extremely few hours to it, whereas on the other hand Swedish schools start usually from the 3rd year and devote considerably more hours to Finnish. This explains the very real problems in especially the teaching of Swedish to Finnish-speaking school-goers (although problems also exist in the teaching of Finnish to Swedish-speakers, which is all too often far too formulaic, grammar-obsessed and unstimulating – it’s why many Swedish-speakers in effectively unilingual Swedish-speaking areas still emerge from school today with very bad Finnish). The current education minister Henna Virkkunen has come up with some interesting proposals to start the teaching of the other domestic language earlier in Finnish-language schools, when pupils are still interested and have not had time to pick up prejudices about it. However, it seems our prime minister has scotched this, bearing as she does some kind of personal semi-paranoid vendetta against anything to do with the Swedish language since the Karleby orientation decision.
I often read from some extreme fenno-nationalists that SFP has somehow managed to force Swedish on the Finnish-speaking population. This is a remarkable assertion given that SFP has never had the 101 members of parliament that this would require. There are currently 10 members of the Swedish parliamentary group (9 SFP + Ålands representative) out of the 200 Finnish parliament members. There are perhaps a couple of Swedish-speaking social democrat parliament members just now (Jacob Söderman comes to mind), one Green that I am aware of (Janina Andersson), Bjarne Kallis is a Swedish-speaking Christian Democrat member of parliament. So, that takes us up to around 14 Swedish speaking Finns (including the Ålander) in parliament. Do they hypnotise the other 175-odd parliamentarians who have Finnish as their mother tongue each time this matter is voted upon? Or could it be that the established political opinion in our country has been enlightened and in favour of democratic rights for members of both of the language groups that make of the Finnish people. In other words, the vast majority of Finns (of both language group) are tolerant individuals who respect the spirit of our constitution.
Incidentally, one further note. I have said before that I was previously a member of SFP. I don’t hide this. Naturally, this is also a blog by an individual – it will contain my individual biases like any other blog. But, I try to tell as impartial a story as I can. There are more links to SFP politicians because approximately 70% of Swedish-speaking Finns vote for SFP, so there are simply many more Swedish-speaking politicians active in SFP! You will note that I also link to the Social Democrats – a party with a highly active Swedish-speaking party district. The Greens are also reasonably active in Swedish. The Centre party have a small Swedish-speaking district that has been dominated by infighting and an internal leadership struggle throughout its short existence; I’d love to link to it, but they don’t appear to have a website. Perhaps I ought to however add a link to the Christian Democrats, who are quite active in Swedish in Österbotten (indeed the current party secretary is a Swedish-speaker). The other parties have a very limited Swedish-speaking profile and pick up very few Swedish-speaking votes.
Unfortunately, Donnchadh, there does appear to be a growing intolerance in society of difference. It is most clearly seen in a hardening attitude towards immigrants, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a tougher, more intolerant attitude towards minorities is also emerging at the same time. Unfortunately, there is a certain right-wing populist wind blowing through politics in much of Europe just now – and Finland has not escaped this. What is regrettable however, especially here, is that the politicians in the mainstream parties have chosen largely not to fight against this but to go down the populist route themselves and simply appropriate some of the far right’s rhetoric. It’s a cowardly route and demonstrates the fact that we lack strong, capable leaders in Finnish politics just now. Might I also add a welcome to this blog!
Friday 26.11.10 at 15:58
jokuvaan
You are fully correct that current language policy has parliamentary backing, much of this is due to these “godfathers” or “strong capable leaders” as you put, these are however dimishing as younger generation have different self-identity. At the same time numerous(scientific) polls show that majority of people are not happy how things are. In other words, democracy is not working.
Overall, you seem think things like Swedish speaking mainstream does, I have read same views time and again. Forced Swedish is not seen as any problem, only the way it’s done and so on.
This is largely due to fact that depending on the issue, you either pull “we are minority” or “we are equal” card.
Constitution is always a compromise of the time and they are not ever-lasting, written on stone. They are changed all the time in the World. When there was a clear danger of new internal conflict and a war with militarily strong Sweden, it’s easy to see why they had to put both languages as official in the final version.
Has to remember that Sweden lost Finland only some 100 years earlier so Swedish speaking population in Finland was seen as Swedes(not Finns) trapped in a foreign country, so crisis with Sweden was not limited only to Åland island, certain coastal areas were part of it.
“she does some kind of personal semi-paranoid vendetta against anything to do with the Swedish language since the Karleby orientation decision. ”
I follow quite closely language issues and I do not fully agree this view. Comments she made before Karleby and before elected as prime minister clearly indicated that we have a first prime minister in a very long time who is not super fan of official bilingualism. She even used term “forced Swedish”.
Personally I think that the media-show done after Karleby orientation decision was largely a theater(another Center minister refusing to speak Swedish etc..), Center party knew beforehand how it would end and they made a new plan how to make most of it. Now they have a pretex for major law changes, even constitutional. Center party, like many others, have an internal working group figuring out a new language policy for Finland. What comes out of these I dont know, but we will find ouf before elections next spring.
Tuesday 30.11.10 at 2:07
Timothy Bryan
Jokuvaan,
Your posts are interesting to read, but I thought perhaps I would add an “outsider-looking-in” view to the discussion, mostly because I plan to make Finland my home and love to get the feel for its politics.
Is it not true that in many parts of Finland Swedish has been spoken as long or longer than Finnish? And because of this, does it not naturally follow that its speakers are of the same orientation in their rights and expectations in relation to debates about language policy in Finland?
I note that you are against being compelled to study Swedish, but hold up the bilingual nature of Swedish-speaking youth as evidence that the SFP is not representing the Swedish-speaking population.
Which is it? The Swedish-speaking group learns Finnish because it is dominated by it, and therefore must (read compelled) adapt by becoming proficient. Why is this state of being compelled only reserved for the minority, when I think most people would agree one can never have too much language study. It is more than just numbers, even though Swedish-speakers far outnumber other language groups in Finland, it is about a future for a native population of your country, which holds their rights as being equal, but must face a sometimes hostile majority who sees know need to acknowledge this importance.
To me, it sounds like you view Swedish as a foreign tongue, when it is in fact every bit as native as your own. If these Swedish-speaking folks were immigrating to Finland and demanding accommodation, I would be more sympathetic to your views, but in reality they are very much at home, and want to remain so–in my opinion.
I might add that I am not a leftist do-gooder, and my views are of the right in every conceivable way. However, I would offer that you have this beautiful rarity in Finland, a country that has a long-ago transplanted language minority that has not been absorbed by the current population, and it is worth protecting. The country is certainly a much more interesting place because of it.
Tuesday 30.11.10 at 18:40
jokuvaan
“Is it not true that in many parts of Finland Swedish has been spoken as long or longer than Finnish?”
For starters we must understand that languages are very dynamic and if we go very far back it’s sometimes hard to define when one language begins and other ends, linguistically. But what comes to Finnish and Swedish, they are from entirely different trees, so we dont have problem of mixing them.
Swedish originates from old east norse and Finnish from Finno-Ugric. Meaning that “Finnish” has been spoken here for thousands of years. In fact oldest rune stones in todays Sweden make more sense in modern Finnish than in modern Swedish. Giving impression how wide spread it was.
Well how and when did the “Swedish” language get here?
Most likely Finnic tribes were weakened by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish-Novgorodian_Wars
This enabled Swedes to capture south Finland step by step. Exact years are hard to tell, somewhere between 1142-1256. During same time Estonia was under constant attack by “crusaders” too. It was a land crap time.
Time went on and more and more people were moved into Finland, naturally many changed their language to Swedish as it was only way up in a society later on when Swedish started to replace Latin.
Of course we have to remember what I earlier talked about two different reality Worlds. In the other reality, things are different, in many ways.
Idea of “common sense” is naturally different by every person, but if say in the USA, you could not graduate even as a plumber, let alone an engineer, or get any state job, without knowing more of less France, there would be an armed uprising quite immediately. I think this gives a certain perspective about the current language law in Finland.
Wednesday 1.12.10 at 0:28
Jonas
All the evidence suggests that the first permanent settlers in many parts of Nyland were Swedish-speaking. Whereas, interestingly many parts of Österbotten (which today remains more Swedish-speaking percentually) probably saw at least some minor Finnish-speaking settlement before Swedish-speakers overtook them (very everyday evidence is left behind in place names like Terjärv in Kronoby municipality).
In any case, both Finnish and Swedish are clearly long established native languages in this country of ours. Both belong to Finland. We should be proud of our country. We are proud of our country, regardless of whether we speak Finnish or Swedish as our mother tongue. I fail to understand why people would wish to try and split the Finnish people.
Wednesday 1.12.10 at 3:46
Timothy Bryan
Jokuvaan,
Thank you for the information, even moving into my forties I like to learn.
In any case, it would seem to be very likely that Swedish has been spoken in Finland for almost 8 centuries, which is a great deal of time by any measure. Further, it would seem that at least in some areas Swedish was the original tongue.
It may be worth taking note that in other areas of the world far less time has produced languages that have disappeared en masse. In my own country dialects of the native tribes have all but disappeared from existence, with only a few speakers remaining. Once proud peoples have nothing to hold onto because (mostly smallpox) events have seen that they have been absorbed.
As to French in the US, if there existed a vibrant community that had kept its use up in a portion of the US (there is a bit in Louisiana), then I would support it completely that it should be learned–at least in the state where it was, as most political decisions are made at the state level in the US.
My opinion is that Finland should carefully guard its minority, because there are few places around that have a similar experience to share.
By the way, if I learned Swedish(though not perfectly), then anyone can
Thursday 2.12.10 at 0:42
jokuvaan
“Further, it would seem that at least in some areas Swedish was the original tongue.”
I think you noticed the word ‘permanent’ from Jonas text? But what does it mean in this context? It means that at some point, certain coastal areas were too dangerous for civil population to live, so they were abandoned. All sort of raiders were moving along the coast, including vikings. This easily leads to another topic: name place research, which is a hot topic and has been partly politically and ideologically motived from both sides, to this day. Just like Chinase are very unhappy, when they find remains of very old non-chinase high culture inside their borders, everything that is digged up here wont make everybody pleased. Self-image is always build-on something and science can be used as political tool. Just like some were trying to prove, that Finnish speakers are Mongols and Swedish speakers are Aryan some 150 years ago.
I think that if you would go and talk about Balkan politics, you would find yourself very soon 1000 years back, or more, or maybe somebody would not want to talk about anything before year 1500. History is always more or less relevant. Just for fun, after typing that, I went for a first time into wiki page telling Balkan history, there was a text:”This article may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints”. Well history is rarely black and white to any direction.
Anyway, of course Swedish speakers are part of Finland’s history and today. Nobody is chasing them away. But Finland’s primarily function, as a national state, is not ‘Heritage Museum and reservation camp of Swedish speakers’. Of course SFP disagrees, like they said in the tv-debate lately, there must be total mandatory Swedish, as otherwise Swedish speakers themself cannot maintain themself. (they would slowly be integrated, apart from Åland where Finnish language is mostly outlawed)
I’m quite sure that many persons, from all directions of my family tree have spoken Swedish at some point and my direct father line could be from Sweden. I think if we would go back in time, say 1000 years, we all would surely find some common ancestors.(unless somebody is from Asia, or Africa etc..)
Anyway, at some point, after Sweden lost Finland to Russia, more and more people started to wonder what we are, as people and as a nation and what it takes to be a nation. It was figured out, that if Finland was to be a viable, strong, functional nation and stay united, it must have a common language. For historical and relevant demographic reasons the answer was quite clear: Finnish. There was just one “small” problem, basicly entire upper class was Swedish speaking due to very long rule under Swedish empire. Some liked the idea, for some it was unthinkable.
But implementation of nation plan was underway, with critical help from Empire of Russia. Huge number of people changed their surnames to Finnish ones, some even changed their ‘use of language’ from Swedish to Finnish, nevermind they hardly knew any of it, they simply desperately wanted to be Finnish, part of something, bigger than village or town.
In Africa, where borders are widly drawn we find that more there are languages, bigger the disarray usually is. Many say that idea of Afganistan, as a state is impossible as they don’t have one common language.
Of course I can’t deny, that if powerbalance would been different, at the time, Swedish speakers would most likely been largely assimilated into majority in a systematic, planned way, just like Finnish speakers living in northern Sweden were considered as a threat to the integrity of Sweden in the past.
In global perspective, there are far more Swedish speakers than Finnish speakers. Swedish it not like Kurdish, lacking homeland to safeguard itself.
Like you mentioned, languages are disappearing in a rapid phase. Purpose of Finland is not about safeguarding Swedish, using over extensive ways. In fact many things this blog is about and will be in the future, are part of story how certain remains of Swedish Empire are falling away. Process that started 200 years ago is still active. Next big one on the agenda will be axing of Swedish speaking army brigade, sooner or later, you will read about it from this blog.
“My opinion is that Finland should carefully guard its minority”
Yes, more effort should be put in Sami language and Karelian language, for culture reasons.
Thursday 2.12.10 at 22:30
Prometo
@Donnchadh
“So why the nasty antipathy and the petty hatred, Prometo? You should be ashamed and embarrassed. ”
Donnchadh, I immigrated to Finland 9 years ago from the US. I do not have an ethnic Finnish background so at the time in 2001, I was very impartial and naive to the societal structures of Finland and demographic, socio-economic realities. Since that time up until now I have become fluent in Finnish and have traveled the length and breadth of Finland. I have friends from both sides: majority Finnish speakers and minority Swedish speakers. I feel that Finland is my now my homeland, and as a patriotic Finn I would naturally want the best for this country.
Finnish is a language, while spoken by an overwhelming majority of Finnish citizens, finds itself with an inferior status in relation to Swedish. While Swedish is official nationwide, in all territories, Finnish has no status whatsoever in Åland.
Demographically speaking, Swedish speakers only make up 5 percent of the population of Finland yet have approximately 2 billion euros spent on translation for them. Out of these 5 percent (285 thousand people out of a population of 5,3 million), 70 percent of them are fluent in Finnish.
In order to work in municipal or national government you must be able to communicate in Swedish. The same goes for if you choose to graduate from a Finnish university or polytechnic. Although the vast majority of Finland’s municipalities are unilingual Finnish-speaking; students in elementary schools, middle schools and high schools are required to learn a language that they have no use of whatsoever. Many Finland-Swede’s express their desire to be serviced in Swedish, because they speak the other national language, yet Sami speakers, who live in the north of Finland, are not given this option. There is not bureaucratic Sami language law like there is for Swedish.
In Finland’s 5 largest cities, Helsinki, Espoo, Tampere, Vantaa and Turku, immigrants (whose native language is neither Finnish or Swedish) are now a plurality over Swedish speakers, yet municipalities have to spend scarce funds on Swedish language translation in place of offering free Finnish language courses to immigrants with social security numbers (as is the case in Sweden). While the waiting time for expensive Finnish classes for immigrant’s is nearly half a year to a year, tax-supported Finland-Swedish organizations are offering FREE Swedish classes for foreigners that are largely empty. The language of communication between Finland-Swedes and Finnish speakers is Finnish, not Swedish, and immigrant’s who want to exceed in Finnish society offer a double barrier into integrating/assimilating; Finland-Swede’s who disdain their wish to learn Finnish, and (some) Finnish speakers who do not want immigration into Finland. Many Finland-Swedish friends have stopped contact with me after I expressed my desire to communicate with them solely in Finnish, the same language that they speak to their workmates, schoolmates, etc.
Speaking of Sweden, which Finland is constantly compared against, the Finnish speaking minority in that country numbers 400 000 people, or about 5 percent of the population. Finland and Sweden were one country for 700 years, and for this reason many Finland-Swedes argue the case for Swedish’s status in Finland. Yet the Swedes in Sweden view this with nonsense vis-à-vis Finnish. Finnish is an official minority language (along with meänkieli, saami, Yiddish and romani) in Sweden, but not official nationwide as is the case in Finland. Finnish is also not a mandatory subject in Swedish schools for pupils in all municipalities.
Finland-Swede’s like to argue that Swedish is a bridge to other Nordic countries, yet the connections between Scandinavia and Finland do not hold fast as in years past. Finland is the only Nordic country that uses the euro currency. Sweden and the rest don’t. Finland has been an EU member since 1995, and Iceland and Norway are out, and both Sweden and Denmark are known for their hostile views towards the EU. Finland’s ties with Germany, France and the rest of the eurozone are just as substantial as those with Sweden. Finland chooses to be outside of NATO while Denmark, Norway and Iceland are in. In this age of globalization, Finland has many connections with countries all over the world and this embryonic relationship that has existed with Sweden is truly from another age. Connections with the east are growing. There were 2.2 million visits from Russia to Finland last year in 2009 versus .75 million from Sweden.
I am not saying deport all Finland-Swedish speakers. What I am saying is remove Swedish as an official nationwide language, remove mandatory 2 billion euro translation and channel that into Finnish language instruction of immigrants. Finland-Swedish speakers who live in municipalities should have services in their language where they are a significant minority (20 percent or higher regardless of population). Under this criteria, there would only be a handful of very rural municipalities (in Ostrobothnia and the Turku archipelago) that would be truly bilingual. The rest would be in semi-independent Åland.
This basically boils down to an elite and privileged Finland Swedish speaking minority with entrenched rights that they do not wish to give up. If you bring up these and other common sense points, you are labeled racist, xenophobic, small-minded, backwards, etc.
I want my children to grow up in a Finland where they are not in a disadvantaged state because they do not speak 5 percent Swedish. I want to live in a Finland where being multicultural does not include mandatory knowledge of Swedish. I want to live in a Finland where speaking Finnish alone can help you reach the highest echelons of society.
I want to live in a Finnish-speaking Finland.
Thursday 2.12.10 at 22:40
Prometo
@Timothy Bryan
“If these Swedish-speaking folks were immigrating to Finland and demanding accommodation, I would be more sympathetic to your views, but in reality they are very much at home, and want to remain so–in my opinion.”
I am curious on your views vis-a-vis the 50 million Spanish language speakers (1 in 6 US residents) in your home country. Should they be afforded the same rights as Swedish speakers in Finland, seeing as over half of US territory was part of Spain/Mexico for a longer period of time then it was part of the US, and the oldest cities in the USA, both San Juan, PR (founded 1508) and San Agustín, FL (founded 1565) on the mainland, were founded by Spanish speaking people?
Thursday 2.12.10 at 23:53
Timothy Bryan
That’s a good question, and one that is left up to the states and their political mechanisms to deal with.
I know that in New Mexico, there are parts where there are Spanish speakers dating back to to the 17th century. If New Mexico wishes to compel its students to study Spanish, I would be all for it, but that would be open to its citizens’ opinions. In fact, I think they may study Spanish there, as most people from New Mexico I have met speak Spanish quite well.
It may surprise you to know that many states do make language instruction mandatory. When I grew up in CA, I had to study Spanish, though I never learned it well. It never made me angry, though the 7 million illegals in CA as of now make me very angry.
It is important to understand that in America the vast majority of these decisions are local or state issues, not federal as in Finland. The concept in our constitution of state’s rights is very firm.
As to Finland, I will live with whatever the Finns decide, but I hope they do not allowed their Swedish-speaking minority to slide further into oblivion. That would be truly sad, and completely unnecessary.
By the way, Puerto Rico is exclusively Spanish speaking, so I don’t think that is a good point in relation to our discussion of speaking and learning foreign tongues.
Friday 3.12.10 at 13:01
Jonas
Sorry I am on business in Oslo (note – a Nordic country where one can speak the “useless” Swedish language) which is what has kept me from approving entries and will mean this is a very quick reply. I don’t know why WordPress randomly decides some entries need to be approved and others don’t.
Jokuvaan,
It is very frustrating for us to hear that ideas such as we have Sweden to go back to. Sweden is not our homeland. The Swedish language does not stop at the political borders of the country Sweden, just as the German language is not owned by the Federal Republic of Germany. The Swedish language is as much a language of Finland as the Finnish language. Finland is our home, we will continue to speak our native language in our home country.
Prometo,
Have you looked into why Finnish is not an official language on Åland? It is a result of the settlement negotiated at the League of Nations between Finland and Sweden. It is not true that Finnish has no status whatsoever on Åland, for example you can use Finnish in a court on Åland should you request to do so.
Where on earth do you get the figure of 2bn euro for translation from? It is completely rubbish. It is a few million at the most (I believe I have read 13 mn€). And a recent study showed that the disproportionately less sick pensions and unemployment benefits claimed by Swedish-speakers actually cancelled it out. You must remember that the government and authorities rarely stick to the letter of the law in translation, any visit to a public website will show you that.
It is also not true that if you want to work in municipal government you have to be able to communicate in Swedish, or at least in most municipalities. The vast majority of Finnish municipalities are unilingually Finnish-speaking.
Swedish classes for foreigners are also not empty. Look at for example Arbis’ website in Helsinki and see that most are fully booked or only have 1 or 2 places left.
As for the idea of only allowing places with 20% or more Swedish (or Finnish) speakers bilingual, do you think that would be fair in places like Esbo where Swedish-speakers were the overwhelming majority until only rapid urbanisation and internal migration bought tens of thousands of Finnish-speakers to that once entirely rural farmland municipality? Should the Swedish-speaking population of Esbo somehow be “punished” for this? It seems unfair to have one rule for one language group and another for the other. You suggest we should give up our linguistic rights, why did the Finnish-speakers who moved to an 80% Swedish-speaking region not have to give up theirs? If half of the Swedish-speaking population moved to Joensuu tomorrow, should we be able to insist the Finnish-speakers in that town loose their language rights? Again, this kind of argument seems to be driven from a core belief that Swedish-speakers don’t belong in Finland, that it’s not our native country. It is.
Again, we here from you the rhetoric that Swedish-speakers are an elite overclass majority which just is not true. Some fenno-nationalists like to use this discourse as it helps to create a divide between the language groups and thus makes it easier to scapegoat Swedish-speakers. It is tiring to have it come up again and again.
Friday 3.12.10 at 22:19
jokuvaan
“Finland is our home, we will continue to speak our native language in our home country.”
Yes it is home and yes you can speak any language as it’s a free Western country.
“It seems unfair to have one rule for one language group and another for the other”
Indeed and as Abu-Hanna said in his homepage year ago:
“The next big conflict, Abu-Hanna predicts, will be between immigrants and the Swedish-speaking minority.”
“In the future the status of Swedish will be the same as other minority languages. They are going to lose out big time, and I don’t think they’ll go quietly.”
That sums it up for now, bye and happy Independence Day.
Saturday 4.12.10 at 4:04
Timothy Bryan
Jonas,
I will do what I can to help the cause. We will be 3 (or maybe 4 or 5) immigrants who will be Swedish-speaking. Of course, that limits where I can move to, but at least in our case we will help the numbers
Sunday 5.12.10 at 1:11
Observer
It’s very depressing to read this current growth in irrational hatred and division among the people of Finland. People don’t seem to think Swedish-speaking Finns should even be allowed to get services in their own language in their own country. Pretty depressing and extreme. I wonder how Finnish-speakers would like it if Raseborg municipality suddenly decided to stop offering service in Finnish or only offered partial services in that language – I am sure there’d (rightly) be an outcry.
Time for solidarity! We are all Finns first and foremost.
Sunday 5.12.10 at 5:17
Troels-Peter
Hej Jonas,
I’ll write (in English) here just to say that I took the liberty to link to your blog from my own, ordinord.blogspot.com. Being a bit of a Scandinavist, I’m quite interested in the situation of Svenskfinland. My own blogging is somewhat irregular, but you might find it interesting.
Vi ses!
Troels-Peter
Sunday 5.12.10 at 19:19
Timothy Bryan
jokuvaan,
“Like you mentioned, languages are disappearing in a rapid phase. Purpose of Finland is not about safeguarding Swedish, using over extensive ways. In fact many things this blog is about and will be in the future, are part of story how certain remains of Swedish Empire are falling away. Process that started 200 years ago is still active. Next big one on the agenda will be axing of Swedish speaking army brigade, sooner or later, you will read about it from this blog.”
I expect that with the recent news that Swedish numbers are no longer diminishing, you may be wrong. It would seem that they have adapted, and the Swedish-speakers are willing to put up with the hostility I’ve noticed on this blog and elsewhere. What other choice do they have?
Concerning the brigade in Raseborg, I think that brigade will simply be where are all of the non-native Finnish speakers go, not just Swedish-speakers.
You seem like a nice-enough person, but it is a shame you see this language issue in terms of national identity. The native Swedish speakers are every bit as much Finns as are the Finnish speakers, and the law recognizes that (thank goodness).
Finally, I will never join the SFP if I should stay in Finland, as they seem to be in support of gay “marriage” (someone correct me if I am wrong), so I would imagine it is also true that many Swedish speakers are not joined at the hip with that party either.
Monday 6.12.10 at 14:42
Jonas
Hello Troels-Peter, mange tak as I believe you say down there! Your blog looks very interesting, particularly good to have some attention drawn to the Swedish-language in Estonia and the situation of the Swedish-speaking Estonians. I am very happy to link to your blog from this one.
I believe that Nylands brigad has actually been rather successful in rejuvenating itself recently. Now it is the location for the Finnish component of the Nordic battle group, showing that it really is an advantage to have Swedish-language skills when the biggest part of the NBG is made up of forces from our western neighbour. In any case, whatever happens, education for conscripts will have to continue in Swedish at some location as otherwise it will be impossible to call up Swedish-speaking Finns for military service, an unrealistic situation.
Further off-topic, SFP has indeed adopted a position in favour of gender-neutral marriage along with the majority of Finnish parliamentary parties. Only Centre, the Christian Democrats and the True Finns oppose such a step.
At this time, I wish a Happy Independence Day – Glad självständighetsdag!
Tuesday 7.12.10 at 0:29
Donnchadh
Prometo
Jokuvaan
Is it not deperately sad (and utterly self-indulgent) for privileged people in a stable, democratic and wealthy northern European country to argue in favour of jetisoning fundamental values of tolerance and respect for minority rights because they are “inconvenient” or “too expensive” or require a bit of effort?
I see a lot of talk here of history and the perceived injustices of the past. I see resentment at former domination by a Swedish-speaking upper class. (Actually if they had been real imperialists you’d now be speaking Swedish and arguing about whether to allow Finnish names on road signs) And of course one must never forget what “they” did to “our” people. Finnish speakers in Sweden have had a rough deal. So let’s even things up by taking away rights from Swedish speakers in Finland.
Somehow you appear to believe this makes sense, or that the Finland which would would result would be the same Finland you see, and value, today.
Ultimately the test for any civilised society is how it treats its minorities. And there can be no greater test for a country like Finland than how it treats an indigenous language community (and that does, incidentally, include the Sami, who really do have plenty of cause for complaint).
There is of course a choice to be made. But I don’t see that stoking the fires of intolerance or arguing for subtle forms of assimilation and ethnic cleansing are sensible choices to make – not if you would rather live in Finland than in Slovakia or Serbia or Moldova.
Let’s be clear about something important in all of this. The arguments you advance to attack the current status of Swedish are not substantially different to those put forward by covert colonialists and ethnic supremacists everywhere. “Your language costs too much”. “There are too few of you to justify the inconvenience”. “Bi-lingualism is confusing”. “It’s divisive for you to be different”. “Giving you rights disadvantages new immigrants”. “You don’t belong here”. However expressed, the meaning is the same – we’d rather you didn’t exist. There is a very good reason that presenting “common sense” arguments of that kind attracts labels like “racist, xenophobic, small-minded, backward”.
And does it not strike you as just a bit bizarre to say that you want to live in a Finland where being multi-cultural doesn’t include a knowledge of one of the country’s indigenous languages. What’s the problem? Is Swedish not trendy or exotic enough?
So what is your vision for the future? Thankfully you don’t seem to favour mass deportations – just a Finnish-speaking Finland (the corollary of which is inevitably a non-Swedish-speaking Finland. So ethnocide by the back door. Of course you aren’t racist).
Somehow I suspect that you also misunderstand the point of education and the nature of success when you argue for a future in which “speaking Finnish alone can help you reach the highest echelons of society”. Since when was having command of only one language something to boast about? Presumably you’ll be actively discouraging the use of English to prevent the future emergence of a bilingual English/Finnish speaking elite.
In fact the irony of this entire discussion is that a great many native speakers of English would quite happily turn your entire thesis back on you. Why on earth, they will say, do you persist with an irrelevant regional language like Finnish? The sooner you all just learn English, the easier it will be for everyone. After all, its just divisive to be different. And Europe really can’t afford the expense of translating into obscure minority languages. How does that appeal as a future vision? It may well be where we are all headed!
Tuesday 7.12.10 at 19:59
Timothy Bryan
Donn,
That really was quite good. And refreshing. I hope that such thoughts might make Finns that are so hostile to Swedish a little less so.
Thursday 9.12.10 at 15:22
jokuvaan
Well it was a far shorter bye than I hoped for.
“So what is your vision for the future?”
1. Removing forced Swedish, making room for other studies
2. Official minority status for Swedish, services only for those who really need it in areas where it makes sense
For example city of Lohja is up against the wall, by law they should make ALL street signs bilingual, does it make any sense or use? No it’s just ideological matter. I predict that they will not apply for bilingual special status anymore(for extra state cash) as by law Lohja is not forced to be bilingual municipality if they dont want to due to population structure.
“Why on earth, they will say, do you persist with an irrelevant regional language like Finnish?”
Finnish is in entirely different league compared to primitive English language and despite being far more advanced than English, about half of the Finnish kids know basicly how to read before they go to first grade in school and remaining will learn within months. This explains by far why Finland does so well in PISA testing, despite the fact that school days are very short, homeworks are nonexistent, school starts at late age and holidays are long.
English speakers use huge time time learning how words are written, Finns dont as words are written as they are said. It would be educational suicide to give up Finnish language.
And btw, Swedish speaking schools in Finland were once again less good than Finnish ones in PISA test.
“Since when was having command of only one language something to boast about”
Eh, never? Fact is that Swedish is taking room away from other far more important languages, including English.
Now into another matter, here’s a piece of poll conducted by Taloustutkimus.
How important following things are in having Finnish identity?
1. That the person speaks Finnish:
46% very important
38% quite important
12% only little important
4% not at all important
2. That person’s mother tongue is Finnish:
33% very important
35% quite important
20% only little important
11% not at all important
1% can’t say
What I wanted to show was that either the majority of the Finns are “racists” or that they have quite different identity compared to Swedish speaking minority. Which one is it? Two different reality identities or racist country?
Friday 10.12.10 at 1:13
Troels-Peter
“Finnish is in entirely different league compared to primitive English language and despite being far more advanced than English…”
Oh, I’m sorry, I really don’t want to enter this debate here, but I can’t help comment on this.
Any linguist can tell you that there is no such thing as ‘primitive’ and ‘advanced’ languages. All languages have basically the same ability to convey human experience, only ordered in different ways. If the language has a complex word structure (like Finnish), it has a simple sentence structure, and if it has a simple word structure (like English), it has a complicated sentence structure, so the one makes up for the other.
And English word structure actually has complicated features as well because it’s inflecting (word endings can contain more than one unit of meaning) rather than agglutinative like Finnish (word endings contain one unit of meaning each).
The idea of primitive and advanced languages was widespread in the 19th century (if the complexity of the language resembled that of Greek and Latin, it was deemed advanced, and if the complexity was at anothe level, it was not recognised, and the language was deemed primitive), but researchers gave this up in the first half of the 20th century since all methodical research demonstrated all languages to be hugely complex when expressing thoughts, only in different ways.
If a researcher was to suggest today that some languages were more primitive than others it would also mean implying that some peoples were thinking more primitively than others, and that just hasn’t been demonstrated (and after the world wars and decolonization and all it would lead to some consternation)
But I know very well that this knowledge unfortunately is not as widespread as it should be, and that nobody is to blame for not being aware of it (except governments (not) funding popularization of science). All we can do is to spread the word about it. Which I did here.
Anyway, I promised not to enter this debate here (I already did at hbl.fi). I just couldn’t hold it back. Sorry, and have a nice week-end.
Friday 10.12.10 at 2:05
Prometo
@Timothy
You either choose to ignore history or see a very limited version of it. The entire southwest of the present day United States was part of Mexico/New Spain for a longer period of time then it was part of the US. Other areas of the US that had a significant Spanish presence were Washington State, Alaska, Florida, Georgia and Puerto Rico.
The ‘7 million illegals’ that now reside in California are probably for the most part of Mexican descent. A core belief among Mexican nationals is that the US border is an artificial demarcation line that was imposed on them 150 years ago. They believe that (Alta) California is as much Mexican as Oaxaca or Michoacán. The original California constitution made the US a bilingual state by law.
The reality of Finland cannot be understood by someone who has not lived here for many years. Having a Finland-Swedish spouse or friend brainwash you abroad is not the same thing.
This is what would happen if the equivalent happened in the USA. The federal government would have 2 official languages, English and Spanish. Every state of the US that had a population that was at least 6 percent Spanish speaking would automatically offer government translation into Spanish for these 6 percent. Within the states, every village, town or city that had a population that was at least 6 percent would automatically be forced to provide all services in Spanish as well. But that is not where it would end. All students in all public schools in the US would be required to learn Spanish, even if they lived in North Dakota or Maine where the need for speaking Spanish would be nil. Spanish speakers would claim that since the USs’ historic cities were founded by the Spanish and because Latin America is an important neighbor, then all US students have to learn Spanish.
The same could be said in other places, but I won’t go on.
This is what exists in Finland today.
Friday 10.12.10 at 2:09
Prometo
@ Donnchadh
Are you a Finland-Swede or in a relationship with one abroad or here, because you clearly have no idea how things operate in Finland on the ground. If you were to live here for a significant amount of time and not be brought over to one side or the other, then perhaps your views would be different.
I am in full agreement on minority rights. I am in favor of protecting minority rights in Finland and in all parts of the world. Finland Swedes are not in the same class as Spanish speakers in the US, while making up 15 percent of the population, have no representation in their language in government at all, Quechua speakers in Peru, Arabic speakers in Israel, Punjabi speakers in India, Russians in Ukraine, Catalans in France or Afrikaans speakers in South Africa. The list goes on and on.
You gripe on minority rights but ignore the fact that there is a wealthy, prosperous bountiful land to the west of Finland called Sweden. And the 9 million + inhabitants of this land speak Swedish. So Finland-Swedes can actually use their ‘endangered and fragile’ international mother tongue in more than one country. Finland-Swedes are not just content with the fact that they can speak Swedish in Sweden, Norway and Svenskfinland. They want it forced upon all of Finland’s inhabitants. Finnish is spoken in one country of the world, Finland, and even in this country, it is not official nationwide like Swedish is.
But if Finland-Swedes were to move to the Sweden, they would lose their elite and privileged status and actually have to work for a living. There self-designated titles of being ambassadors of western, Scandinavian, Christian culture would be taken away from them. There would be nothing special about them.
This Finland-Swedish ‘disadvantaged minority’ has a salary 20 percent higher than Finnish speaking people. They live in the wealthiest cities, have better health and better services given to them; again from taxes brought from other parts of Finland that are in desperate attention for economic resuscitation. Universities in Finland have more seats for Swedish speakers then Finnish speakers. Affirmative action policies for Swedish speakers have created, essentially, ‘an upper class’ of people who are strongly represented in the fields of medicine, engineering, business, etc.
Don, I am not arguing for assimilation even though that is my goal as an immigrant in Finland. I am arguing that Finland-Swedes should not project the Swedish language on a nation that is 95 percent Finnish speaking. There should not be forced Swedish lessons in schools in cities where the overwhelming majority of students are Finnish speakers or whom speak other languages. Swedish should be protected and preserved in areas of Finland where it has been historically spoken, and spoken by a significant minority. Vantaa, again, is a prime example. This suburb of Helsinki has 200 000 inhabitants but due to its circa. 5000 Swedish language speakers the entire city is automatically bilingual.
Should the 40,000 immigrants in Vantaa who have neither Finnish nor Swedish as their first language have to go on waiting for years to find adequate Finnish language classes because resources are spent on Swedish language translation for Vantaa’s 1 in 20 population that are already entirely fluent in the language?
Jokuvaan has mentioned the PISA results. In an article a few days ago in the Hufvustadsbladet, the author writes that one of the reasons that the Swedish language schools had poorer results in comparison to the Finnish ones is that a significant amounts of students in these schools had Finnish as their native language. In what other country of the world do parents send their kids to schools to learn a language spoken by 5 percent of the population? How oppressed can a minority language be when a large proportion of students in minority language schools actually speak Finnish at home to their parents? The Ministry of Education has designated all universities in Finland as bilingual, such as Universitetet Helsingfors / Helsingin Yliopisto or Jyväskylän Yliopisto / Jyväskylä Universitetet, while Swedish speaking universities are not. Åbo akademi and Svenska Handelshögskolan are not compelled to be bilingual in Finnish as are other universities. A strange phenomenon occurs in these schools when a majority or significant amount of students is in fact Finnish speakers. In one Swedish language university in Helsinki, students spoke to each other in Finnish on coffee breaks but in class they spoke Swedish to the teacher.
Swedish is an indigenous language of Finland, I am not arguing with that historical fact. You misunderstood my statement dealing with multiculturalism. One can speak Swedish and be multicultural; one cannot speak Swedish and be multicultural. That being said, a multicultural Finland is right now giving birth today that is very different then one with a forced Swedish language dimension. I have a half-Cuban, half-Belorussian Finnish friend who speaks 4 languages fluently, Swedish not being one of them.
Immigrant children from Russia, Pakistan, Somalia, Italy, Kurdistan and Ecuador play in my piha (yard) and communicate with each other in Finnish, as do their parents. In time, when the immigrant population surpasses the Swedish speaking one, will these immigrants be clamoring for the continued existence of Swedish? Or will they be asking for Finnish language instruction to improve their Finnish and their children’s Finnish, etc. Of course the corollary of a Finnish speaking Finland would be a diminished presence of Swedish. Immigrants are clamoring to learn Finnish. Are they ethnocentric and racist as well as ethnic Finns?
Finland-Swedes should protect their own. Yes there should be Swedish speaking schools for Swedish speaking kids. There should be Swedish speaking owned businesses that cater to Swedish speakers. There should be Swedish speaking media as well.
There should not be forced Swedish on all students nationwide. If Swedish speakers make up 2 percent of a city or of a town, they should not be able to demand that all municipal employees speak Swedish like Princess Victoria. But laws to protect a language spoken by 2 percent of a municipality’s population? Forced Swedish language instruction in cities like Lappeenranta, Joensuu, Kuusamo or Inari, which receive (millions) of Russian visitors a year?
You misunderstood my point on reaching all levels of Finnish society. When you have a smug elite that control the country’s institutions of higher learning and are the majority in the medical, arts, scientific, business, engineering, etc. fields due to affirmative action policies, then you and 95 percent of your compatriots are disadvantaged because you did not have access to the same affirmative action. You are essentially disadvantaged and disenfranchised.
English is a language equal in status to Sami, Finnish, Swedish and the other 6500 languages spoken on this rock. I believe in one national language for Finland, Finnish. I believe that Swedish should be a minority language in Finland along with Sami and Tatar, and perhaps indigenous Roma Kalo language.
Friday 10.12.10 at 5:15
Timothy Bryan
Prometo,
Please drop the patronizing bit on US history. I am well aware that Spain contolled the area in question (new Mexico froom the 16th century. Then, Mexico inherited this land (that had already been stolen from the native americans, mostly pueblos) but administered it poorly. The land was ceded thereafter to the Americans in 1848.
Your argument about the Federalization argument in America is poor. These decisions could not be made on a Federal level in the US, so you are just babbling; obviously, the opposite is true in FInland, or those decisions would not have been made there. I already told you I had mandatory Spanish in school, and most school districts have the same.
So you don’t continue your non-existent knowledge of politics and policy of the U.S., please focus on Finland. As a parting wave, it might be worth it for you to understand Mexican and Spanish as a people are very different things. Also, all Mexicans that I have met–the number is in the thousands, I arrested them for a living (Border police)–always want to come to the US for a better life, not because they think Mexico owns CA.
I hope there are not too many people there that talk in this manner, as I
Friday 10.12.10 at 5:48
Timothy Bryan
tire of blather from people who merely speak in order to denigrate others.
Friday 10.12.10 at 12:38
Jonas
Donnchadh, I must echo Timothy’s comment. That was a very reasoned, well formulated and refreshing entry. And Timothy, it is indeed very tiring to hear the same old stereotype-based nonsense again and again.
Troels-Peter has dealt with Jokuvaan’s assertions from a far more informed perspective than I could offer. Thank you for that.
Prometo, you don’t really come with anything that you have not written before. But, some of the assertions you make our so false that they must once again be dealt with.
We once again hear the stereotype-based nonsense that Swedish-speaking Finns represent some kind of upper, elite class in this country. You suggest that we don’t even work for a living! Quite honestly, even Heikki Tala’s discourse is not as extreme as this. For example, my family’s “economic history” has its base in agriculture and boat-building. Both manual industries. This is not unlike the majority of Swedish-speaking Finns. But again we see that we must all be judged based on a very small minority of Swedish-speakers amongst the elite in Helsinki. It is perhaps understandable as this is perhaps were the most contact between non-Swedish speakers and Swedish-speakers has occurred, giving a somewhat skewed picture of the Swedish-speaking population. I urge you, Prometo, to travel into the “real” Svenskfinland or perhaps you could read the book Muukalainen Muumilaaksossa which is a rather interesting insight. Travel outside of the capital region, come here to Östra Nyland, travel a little west to Västra Nyland, take a trip up to Österbotten and look for those rich elite you speak of. You won’t find them, you will find ordinary people living ordinary lives that just happen to speak Swedish.
Again we hear the same old repetitive diatribe on how we can move to the foreign country of Sweden if we want to speak Swedish as if we don’t have the right to use our own language and get obtain public services in our own language in our own country. Why should we have to leave our native land and become foreigners?
There are in fact no affirmative action policies for Swedish-speakers in Finland, no more so than for Finnish-speakers. We live in a country with two official and equal languages.
You suggest that Swedish “should be protected and preserved in areas of Finland where it has been historically spoken, and spoken by a significant minority” and yet then go on to mention Vantaa/Vanda as a “prime example” of where Swedish should not be an official language. Yet, Vanda is actually a prime example of an area where Swedish has been “historically spoken” as you yourself put it. Vanda has its historical routes in the village and rural district of Helsinge. This was an overwhelmingly Swedish-speaking sparsely populated farming territory until the middle of the twentieth century It is only in the last half century or so that mass movement from inner Finland has produced a huge urban sprawl dominated by Finnish-speakers. I suppose you think that this is the fault of the ordinary Swedish-speaking population and that they should therefore be punished by losing the right to speak their own language in their own locality to their own local authorities? In many areas in Nyland where Swedish-speakers are now the minority, there are now greater numbers of actual Swedish-speakers today than when in previous years (Esbo for example). We have only shrunk as proportions of the population, that shows how disproportionately (due to internal migration) the Finnish-speaking population has grown. Should we Swedish-speakers be punished for this? No. We should welcome our new inhabitants, we should ensure they have access to services in their mother tongue (with all the capital expenses in for example building new Finnish-speaking schools etc that this involves) – but we should also expect respect for the bilingual nature of our communities.
In regards to PISA, it is indeed true that the Swedish-speaking schools performed worse than the Finnish-speaking schools (although still way above the level of those in our neighbouring Nordic countries). This is largely to do with the increase in number of bilingual students speaking more Finnish at home. 19% of pupils at Swedish-speaking schools speak another language than Swedish at home compared to only 4% of pupils at Finnish-language schools that speak another language than Finnish at home. There is also a case to be made for the fact that textbooks in the Swedish-speaking schools are less good (for a whole variety of reasons, some domestic versions are poor, other imported from Sweden are unsuitable for Finland). It has also been suggested that the training for teachers available in Swedish is not as good as that for Finnish-language trainee teachers. Some of the reforms to teaching training in Finnish were not fully implemented on the Swedish side. Additionally, it has been argued that Finnish language school headteachers have far greater choice when recruiting as they have a bigger pool of talent to choose from. It is not rare that for Swedish-speaking positions there is only one job applicant.
In regards to universities, it is not true that the university in Jyväskylä is bilingual. Helsingfors universitet is bilingual as is Aalto university (although the latter largely only in theory with very few Swedish-medium classes). Åbo akademi is indeed Swedish-speaking as is Hanken. There are many unilingual Finnish-speaking universities. A university’s “language” does not mean members of the other language group can not attend it, and indeed many Finnish-speakers actively choose to study in Swedish at for example Hanken and Åbo akademi and I believe that to be a very positive thing (equally many Swedish-speaking Finns choose to study through the medium of Finnish). There are some quotas to ensure Swedish-speaking participation in certain courses such as medicine – after all, we need to have Swedish-speaking medical staff. Note that Swedish-speakers can only study medicine in Swedish at Helsinki University. Finnish-speakers have a greater choice of venues. Finnish speakers with a sufficient knowledge of Swedish can also get in via the quotered places and frequently do.
Incidentally, 95% of the population are not Finnish-speaking. At the end of 2009 it was 90,7%.
Friday 10.12.10 at 14:17
Rasmus
I had quite forgot about this blog, but now I am back. And yet not so much has changed. The same old prejudice about Finland-Swedes being the rich upper-class. As false as this may be, it is the image of Finland-Swedes held by many and it is from that false image that some kind of jealously towards us has developed among some people. For some, this misguided jealously takes its form in a hatred of all things to do with the Swedish language. Even otherwise educated people seem to hold this prejudice. It is amazing how much of the time we still base our attitudes on prejudice and stereotype even in the year 2010.
Friday 10.12.10 at 18:03
Prometo
For Tim, Don, Jonas and others, this will be my last post in this thread. I have better things to do with my time then try and explain basic truths. Your opinion’s are clear and so are mine, so it’s pointless to go on.
This reminds me of the debate that was on YLE TV 2 a couple weeks back when again and again the smug Finland Swedish side disagreed with, insulted the intelligence of, or belittled the panel that was advocating for the removal of forced Swedish in Finnish speaking schools. Of course on this panel there were around 8 people or so on each side, even though a more representative debate would have been 1 Swedish speaker and 18 Finnish speakers. Here it’s several against me, so I won’t go on.
Jonas, surprisingly, I know, I have good Finland Swedish friends, here in Helsinki whom do work very hard. Painting them with a broad brush would be incorrect. But if you would compare the position of Finland Swedish speakers versus those of Finnish speaking people, you would find a clear difference in educational and income levels. I also have traveled extensively in eastern Uusimaa, around Porvoo, and I have been down the coast through Raasepori to Hanko. This Christmas I am going to be in Pohjanmaa visiting a Finland-Swedish speaking family and visiting other Finland-Swedish speaking friends whom live in Greater Helsinki but go back up north for the holidays?
In other parts of Europe languages disappear. That’s a fact of demographic reality. German used to be spoken prominently in Kaliningrad for centuries, but no more. Latin was the English of its day in Western Europe for over a millennium but has no living native speakers today. 200 years ago on the eve of Finland’s breakup from Sweden the Swedish speaking population was 14 percent. 85 percent were Finnish speakers. After over a century of Russian rule and an independent Finland emerging in1917, the figure went down to 11 percent. Today in 2010 4.8 percent of mainland Finns are Finland-Swedish speakers. Should we continue this policy when the figure is at 1 percent in 2050 or less? Should immigrants who want to learn Finnish have to wait in queues that last for years to find adequate Finnish language courses? Now that Helsinki is a metropolitan area of over 1 million people and because other cities have hundreds of thousands of people do we have to continue forced Swedish instruction due to the fact that centuries ago some Swedish settlers lived on a few hamlets on the coast?
Tim, your venomous and seething hatred for Mexicans and other ‘illegals’ as you put it shows through clearly in your posts. Its funny how one minority in one country you love, like Swedish speakers in Finland, and in another one, Spanish speakers in the US, you disdain. How sad. You hunted human beings that were crossing an artificial line for a life that would lift their children up economically speaking. US policies in LATAM have prevented and disenfranchised many governments from lifting their citizens out of poverty. All of America, the continent, was seized from Native American peoples. The vast majority of Mexico’s population is of either direct or mixed Native American descent. Educated Mexicans whom I have met in this world tell me that they do believe that the US is occupying a large part of their country. I have lived in the US for quite some time to know ‘how people like you think’. You don’t have to tell me what I do and do not know about US-Mexican relations. In the US, the federal government through the Congress and ¾ of the state legislatures’ could pass a law making either English or both English and Spanish official languages. Congress could also pass an act like No Child Left Behind overseen by the Department of Education mandating forced Spanish instruction in public schools across the United States. There is no such thing as ‘mandatory Spanish’, only a high school graduation requirement that you study a ‘foreign’ language. Your high school probably offered only Spanish and you were most likely absent most of the time.
I wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Friday 10.12.10 at 19:16
Timothy Bryan
Prometo,
Your “knowledge” of the US is lacking, and that is putting it mildly. I have had more wonderful Mexican-American friends than you will meet in a lifetime, educated or otherwise. You grasp at an attempt to explain the amendment to the constitution of the US to make Spanish bilingual, which will never happen, and say that is what is done in Finland. Finland has federal control (correct me if I am wrong someone), the US has the 10th amendment–look that up since you have lived in the U.S. long enough to know.
You make absurd statements elsewhere, such as that German was spoken in Kaliningrad, when Konigsberg and it environs was a land annexed by the Soviets following the Second World War, and its German people were dispersed or killed. Is that the model you want to follow in Finland?
It is almost like you want to engage and make a decent argument, then fall over yourself with your dislike of language policy in Finland (and ignorance of the US). Take off your blinders, you will find life easier to understand.
Saturday 11.12.10 at 13:13
Jonas
Prometo, I am glad to hear that you are travelling around Svenskfinland. But I do find it staggering that you can hold such venom against Swedish-speakers if that is the case.
The TV2 programme you refer to was disgustingly biased. Even it’s title “Pakkoruotsi-ilta” showed that it was not a balanced production. Can you imagine them getting away with entitling a similar programme discussing immigration “Nigger evening”? Of course not. Two representatives of Suomalaisuuden liito were invited, but no invite at all went to Folktinget – the body legally charged with representing the Swedish-speaking population.
In response to your question regarding immigrants and the teaching of Finnish, that has nothing to do with this matter. Of course immigrants should have the right to learn Finnish or Swedish depending on their choice. But, again, this has nothing to do with anything we’re discussing,as important a matter that it may be.
If we must turn once again to statistics, it is certainly true that at independence the Swedish-speaking population represented slightly more than 11% of the population (in 1910 there were 339 000 Swedish-speakers in Finland). Today there are 290 392 Swedish-speakers in Finland, more than in 2005 when there were 289 251 and as you can see we are now once again growing in number. We are roughly as many as the population of Iceland. Our primary decline in numbers was during the 1950s-1970s when a massively disproportionate number of the emigrants from Finland to (principally) Sweden were Swedish-speaking Finns in the wake of Nordic passport freedom. It is estimated that 20% of more of all from Finland who moved to Sweden were Swedish-speaking Finns. So, whilst in recent years we may be declining as a percentage, it must be remembered that we are stable as a number of actual people. It should also be noted that the Finnish-speaking population is also decreasing as a percentage as immigration brings groups who speak neither Swedish nor Finnish as their mother tongue into our country.