That the Swedish-speaking Finns are richer than their Finnish-speaking compatriots is one of the strongest stereotypes applied to Finland’s Swedish-speaking population. This stereotype often fuels jealously from the Finnish-speaking population towards Swedish-speakers. This is frustrating for most Swedish-speakers who are aware that it is not at all based in fact. New research from the Finnish Institute of Occupational Health has been released that proves that Swedish-speakers are indeed no richer than Finnish-speaking Finns.
According to researcher Liisa Moilanen at the Institute of Occupational Health, there are no differences in how much members of Finland’s two language groups earn. There were also no differences in property ownership, however Swedish-speakers were more likely to invest their capital in shares. Men earn more in both language groups.
The only difference Moilanen found was that Swedish-speakers tended to have a greater “social capital” than Finnish-speakers, in other words they have on average larger families and a greater number of friends. Swedish-speakers also had a slightly more positive attitude towards their job than other Finns.
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Friday 14.1.11 at 8:57
Timothy Bryan
Jonas,
A little off subject, but here is this photo at the top of the page from?
Friday 14.1.11 at 12:40
Joni
Hej Jonas,
this is a bit off-topic but nevertheless relevant considering the broader theme of your blogg. In comparison to minority population/nationalities elsewhere, you use very peculiar term, “Swedish-speaking Finns”. So, my question is, how would you anglicize the concept “finlandssvenskhet” in English (f.e finlandssvensk modernism), Swedish-speaking Finnishness, Finland-Swedishness?
Friday 14.1.11 at 12:52
Jonas
Hi Timothy, it’s a view of the old town in Borgå.
Hi Joni, we have this conversation in great detail on this blog before. You can’t really anglicise finlandssvenskhet in a direct translation in English, in my opinion. At least, you can’t do so in a way that would result in a term that would mean anything to 99,99% of an English-speaking audience. ‘Swedish-speaking Finn’ is perhaps somewhat of a clumsy term, but it is the best descriptive term in my opinion. Finland-Swede tends to be less directly understood by people who have never heard of the group before, and often confused with Finns living in Sweden. When approaching the term “Swedish-speaking Finn”, one must remember that ‘Finn’ in English does not correspond to ‘finne’ in Swedish (one might say that they are ‘false friends’), it’s more accurate to compare it to ‘finländare’. So, whilst I would never describe myself as a ‘finne’ in Swedish, I am most certainly a ‘Finn’ when speaking English.
Essentially, the problem is that we are not a very well known group internationally and thus there is no simple established term that will be directly understood by all. Most people you meet outside of the Nordic countries (and a shockingly great number even within it) are completely ignorant of the fact that Finland has two language groups.
Tuesday 18.1.11 at 15:29
Joni
Hello Jonas,
Nice to hear your comments, however I happen to be of completely different view. According to your argumentations Volga-Germans should be referred as ‘German-Speaking Russians’ since someone could argue that they are not a known group by international standards. The same could be said about Transylvanian Saxons f.e. Maybe you should also explain your logic to members of Sami (or Roma minorities) who have not yet realized to refer themselves as “Sami-speaking Finns”. There’s not a single national minority in the world who would subject to such bizarre naming standard, ala “Swedish-speaking Finn”. You wanna be the clown?
Do you even realize how offending the term “Swedish-speaking Finn” is?
If you have problems with this you should stick to the constitutional “Swedish-speaking population” (…of Finland) f.e. I am afraid you pay too much emphasize on the 1800s nation-state inspired Ultra-nationalism. And….there’s not a single gimmick in your toolbox which would enable you to argue that “Swedish-speaking Finnishness” makes more sense that Finland-Swedishness. Even if the term “Swedish-speaking Finn” brings less misunderstanding it certainly does not illustrate the cultural identity of finlandssvenskar at any rate, and in addition, as said, it can be considered chauvinistic (from a minority point of view).
Tuesday 18.1.11 at 16:05
Jonas
I respect your views Joni, as I mentioned, we’ve discussed them in great detail before and I don’t intend to repeat myself nor go entirely off-topic. I do not share your fixation with terminology, I merely use what is most easily understood in my opinion. You are entitled to disagree with this. I am not in the slightest way offended as being described as Swedish-speaking Finn, Finland-Swede, member of the Swedish-speaking population of Finland or anything else.
Sunday 23.1.11 at 17:12
jokuvaan
There was also another myth busted by Magma study, swedish speakers are not hated because of their language but because of forced swedish in the school system.
Overall the language argue is now moving into point where politicians are placing their chips on different cards, elections are ever closer and the first election tool has been released conserning Kyme constituency. 12 of the 200 parlament members are selected from there.
Near 80% of the canditates that have answered are supporting idea that you could study russia instead of swedish in eastern part of Finland which is understandable as anything else would be political suicide.
Monday 24.1.11 at 15:56
Jonas
Swedish-speakers are not hated. Except by a very small minority. Usually the same kind of people who express other intolerant views, such as those against foreigners etc.
Teaching of modern foreign languages, Russian included, needs to be improved. But there is no reason for this to be done at the cost of teaching in the national languages. Politicians suggesting that one swaps Swedish with Russian in some municipalities in eastern Finland shows that claims by them to be in favour of choice are false, and that in fact that are just pursuing an anti-Swedish agenda. Where is the freedom of choice in compulsory Russian teaching? How will those that complain Swedish is too hard deal with Russian, which is more difficult than Swedish. Already too little time is allocated to Swedish teaching in Finnish schools, the hours devoted to it would certainly not be enough to give pupils a very useful command of Russian.
Monday 24.1.11 at 23:10
jokuvaan
Nobody is pushing compulsory Russian, it would still be only an optional and quite small motivated group of people would take it. There any many who can’t manage even a quite simple English after 9 years of basic school, real learning happens outside of school, for some.
Media focus at the moment is in the Russia and easter part of the country, but once the elections get closer the view will expand a lot.
But of course even small Russian experiment is strategically a huge issue. Laws of 2004 and 1978 would have to be changed, both originally tailor made by pro-Swedish camp. Otherwise people selecting Russian line would be in trouble in university level and in applying certain state jobs.
Our prime minister already used a term “for now” when he said that Finland is officially bilingual country, when interviewed by svenska YLE media. She clearly has a plan but timetable is unknown.
Monday 24.1.11 at 23:30
Jonas
There are people pushing swapping Swedish classes with Russian in some municipalities in eastern Finland. They might not be marketing this as an introduction of obligatory Russian language teaching, but that’s what the result would be.
Whilst I did not see Kiviniemi say this, it does not surprise me in the slightest. She does, after all, represent the Centre party.
Monday 24.1.11 at 23:42
Prometo
Why does there have to be a ‘pakkoruotsi’ or a ‘pakkovenäjä’. Why not let students choose between russian, swedish, german, french, english, spanish, etc? As for the ‘Swedish speaking Finns’, it is not a stereotype that you are better off, its true, Statistics Finland proves that you have higher incomes and are better placed in higher management and directorial fields in Finnish industry. Quotas that channel you into top university academic seats and university posts, tax revenue spent to maintain your dying language…. While immigrants are packed into overcrowded and poor Finnish language classes. The overwhelming majority of Finns who want to remove Forced Finnish in schools are open to an international, European global Finland, not a closed one that is at the disposal of 4 percent who speak a very backward dialect of Swedish. I don’t want my tax euros spent on translating into a language that no one hears and no one speaks, save for a few hillbillies that live in the beach way off in the middle of nowhere. If they hate Finnish so much why don’t they move to Sweden? If I were a ‘Swedish speaking Finn’ I would have left a long time and settled nice and comfortable in Örebrö or wherever.
Tuesday 25.1.11 at 7:11
Tapio
Did we both join together to fight Russians to then start making our children learn their language and let them buy up all our land? Mannerheim would turn in his grave.
Tuesday 25.1.11 at 9:35
Rasmus
Prometo, perhaps you didn’t know, but Swedish-speakers also pay tax! Shock, horror!
Tuesday 25.1.11 at 9:45
Jonas
Hello Prometo,
Your comments are rather discriminatory in tone. Why should we move to a foreign country? We will speak our own language in our own country. Unfortunately, as in your previous entries, you once again repeat stereotypes as if they represented truths. This is unfortunate, but you seem closed to reason. It’s interesting that even in your spreading of mistruths you are inconsistent. According to your post, we are both better off, have higher incomes, and more disposed to be academics – yet at the same time we’re also hillbillies.
Swedish is not a dying language. The number of Swedish-speakers in Finland is in fact increasing. Nor do Swedish-speaking Finns speak a “very backward dialect of Swedish” as you put it, if such a thing can ever be objectively judged – which I suspect it can’t. For a start, we don’t all speak the same dialect. Everyone has their own opinion on dialects and accents. Often people say that the skånska dialects are the ugliest in the Swedish language, whilst personally I find it charming and fascinating.
Rasmus makes a good point. But, I think you don’t understand how taxation in a civilised society works. If we all start deciding what we want “our” tax euros spent on, society would not take a long time to collapse. Perhaps people will decide that they don’t want to pay for your medical costs, or my next door neighbour’s daughter’s university education, or for translations into Finnish of municipal documents in Raseborg and so on.
Teaching of Finnish and Swedish to immigrants is certainly something that needs more resources, but that is a separate issue. Linking it to Swedish teaching in Finnish schools is just peculiar.
Hello Tapio,
I do not agree with your statement. We did indeed come together to fight for our country in the wars of the 1940s. But, today’s Russians can not be collectively held responsible for the actions of the Soviet Union in the past. People should have a wide-range of languages to choose from when learning a modern foreign language at school. More resources need to be allocated to all teaching of languages; both the national languages and foreign as well as teaching of Finnish and/or Swedish to immigrants.
Tuesday 25.1.11 at 17:22
Prometo
Jonas, I am sorry that yo find my comments to be rather discriminatory in tone. I apologize that I ruffled your feathers and upset you.
Many Finland-Swedes like to go and on that Finland was Sweden for 700 years. They say that their families have lived in this Finland-Sweden. Many say that they are patriots… But the connection between Sweden and Finland ceased in 1809. Wouldn’t these patriotic Sweden-Finns then want to move back to the birthplace of their culture and identity?
My ‘mistruths and stereotypes’ are shared by the overwhelming majority of Finns and new Finns, the Finnish people that inhabit the 95 percent of reality of what it means to be a Finn in Finland. Swedish is a very foreign language for the vast majority of the inhabitants of this country. Why perpetuate and propagate it when it has absolutely no use but to elevate and crown Finland-Swedes to some sort of godlike status?
With the hillbillies comment, I meant that the tiny fragment of the minority that do not have Finnish-speaking skills live in a few hamlets on the ostrobothnian shore. Most interestingly, many of these Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians whom I have met do not support Forced Swedish in Finnish speaking schools, and they do not support the constitution making Swedish an official nationwide language when its spoken by a mere 4 percent of the population. They want to have rights to Swedish language services in their respective villages, but see the danger in forcing a language on Finnish speaking pupils in Ilomantsi or Kuusamo, places that have absolutely nothing to do with whether one’s Swedish language rights will be taken care of.
The Finland-Swedes that enter these universities are all entirely fluent in Finnish themselves. My inconsistency as you put stems from the fact that I did not make myself clear in the first post. The -only- monolingual Swedish speakers on the mainland live in a few villages on the ostrobothnian coast.
Finland-Swedish is loosing its place in Finnish demographics every year. Your language is shrivelling up, and will eventually, die. As many language do in many places of the world. Every year in relative terms speakers of Finland-Swedish are becoming smaller. As immigration continues to expand, as as more families have more children, Finnish will continue to grow stronger and stronger. No offence Jonas, but I believe the Finland-Swedish dialect of Rikssvenska is hideous, with the exception of Åländska. Swedish from Nyland, Östra-Nyland and Österbotten sounds awful when compared to Swedish in Sweden, you and I know it, and so do Swedes. It sounds like any Finn in Finland speaking Swedish. It is out of touch with mainstream Swedish in Sweden and places Finland as some backwater position vis-a-vis Sweden. Above and beyond all that, it continues to perpetuate the lie that Swedish is an integral part of Finnish society, that it is a language of day to day discourse in Finnish society, and that it has a future. It doesn’t.. It had a past, it has a forced present, but it doesn’t have a future.
According to this article http://www.hbl.fi/text/inrikes/2011/1/25/w58038.php
a majority of Finnish citizens do not want forced Swedish in schools and do not a bilingual national government. So it is not I with my own little petty, uneducated, “half-truth spreading”, New Finn self that wants this change… When will the voice of the people be heard? When will it be listened to? When will it be acknowledged?
I AND THE MAJORITY OF FINNS DON’T WANT OUR -HARD EARNED- TAX EUROS GOING INTO FINANCING ANY SWEDISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OR WHATSOEVER IN THIS COUNTRY
And according to this article, http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/11/immigrants_learning_swedish_over_finnish_run_into_problems_2114684.html
save for Närpes, no New Finn in their right mind would want to learn a language that has absolutely no use for them that goes towards their advancement in Finnish society. Is this so hard for you to understand? Taxes channeled into the Ministry of Education can either go towards wasteful Forced Swedish or into teaching all of Finland’s inhabitants the Finnish language.
Wednesday 26.1.11 at 0:54
Donnchadh
Well said, Jonas!
Is the commentary above typical of wider public debate in Finland? Or are comments about “hillbillies” just the ravings of a lunatic fringe? In any event, I must say you are handling it very well.
One of the fascinating things about the bigotry displayed by the likes of Prometo is that it seems to be universal. For any minority group anywhere in the world there will inevitably be someone spouting more or less the same discriminatory arguments.
Given that the more extreme stuff often comes from people who are themselves outsiders (because they over-compensate in trying to conform), I wondered whether there was any obvious pattern to anti-Swedish attitudes in Finland?
Wednesday 26.1.11 at 2:45
jokuvaan
Public debate is a very wide concept but what happens in the Internet is mainly clash of two extreme sides as they are only ones actually interested&cognizant of the topic. What happens in moderated areas, radio, tv and papers is of course more or less polished. What comes to packing up and leaving to Sweden, that is actually reality to some in certain parts of coast if they didn’t learn Finnish in school&freetime then they are somewhat dead in the water what comes to job life. Also some Swedish speakers are threatening(in Internet) to leave if this or that law is changed.
Only clear patterns are that men are more negative to Swedish. Also older are more negative to Swedish. Even my grandpa makes fun of Swedish speaking frontline deserters in his war diary and some veterans remained bitter for their entire life but that generation is nearly fully gone now.
Wednesday 26.1.11 at 12:17
Jonas
Hello again Prometo,
You fundamentally misunderstand the history of Finland. “Finland-Sweden” is an anachronistic term that is sadly all to often used in the popular history of Finland to describe the time up to 1809. In reality, what is today the territory of Finland was an integral part of the Swedish realm, i.e. Åbo was no less part of the Swedish state than for instance Göteborg (and in fact, it was much easy to travel from Stockholm to Åbo then for example Stockholm to Umeå as sea travel was faster than overland travel in the past). Finland did not exist as a political entity. Unfortunately, pre-1809 history is not even included in the compulsory school curriculum these days, so it is hardly surprising so much ignorance abounds. But we who are today Swedish-speaking Finns have lived here for many many generations. In many of the areas where we are most often found, we pre-date Finnish-speaking settlement, so this is as much our country as it is that of our Finnish-speaking compatriots. Together we make up Finland’s people. We are neither worth less nor more than those that speak Finnish. We are as much committed to this, our native land, as they are. It is actually quite hurtful for us when people insinuate otherwise. Why is it so hard to understand that a country can have more than one native tongue?
I simply find it impossible to understand that you consider the Swedish-speaking population to be elevated to a god-like status. You seem to think it is some kind of privilege to be a Swedish-speaking Finn rather than a Finnish-speaking Finn. I ask you, is it a privilege to have to always fight to speak your own language in your own country?, is it a privilege to face prejudice against you in your own country for speaking your own language?, is it a privilege to often here that you are in fact to be considered a foreigner in your own country?
In regards to your hillbilly clarification, I still find your reasoning odd. Are people from the countryside worth less than those from cities? I am from the countryside south of Borgå in Nyland (Uusimaa). I am not from Österbotten nor do I have any relatives there. My grandparents did not speak Finnish. There are still people today in Nyland who do not command the Finnish language. Remember, the demographics here have changed very quickly. When my grandparents were young, more than 80% of the population of their home municipality in Nyland spoke Swedish as their mother tongue. Today it is around a third. We Swedish-speakers have not disappeared or even decreased in raw numbers – but Finnish-speakers from the interior of Finland have moved here because we happen to be within commenting distance of the capital. Is this our fault? No. Do you think if we Swedish-speakers moved en masse to for instance Joensuu tomorrow, the city authorities and people there would be so accepting of a massive linguistic change? No, I think not. Please try also to see things from our point of view. We have been extremely tolerant and I fully accept and support that everyone in Finland should be able to choose where he or she wants to live regardless of their language group – we are all Finns. If people in overwhelmingly Swedish-speaking areas in Österbotten do not fully command Finnish, I think that is just as understandable as the fact that people in overwhelmingly Finnish-speaking Jyväskylä don’t have a full command of Swedish. This does not make either group less Finnish – Finland has two national languages. One can express Finnish identity in either Finnish or Swedish (or both).
It is indeed true that as a proportion of the population (as opposed to raw numbers), we Swedish-speakers are decreasing. But, so are also the Finnish-speakers as immigrants speaking third languages (such as yourself) arrive in our country. They are to be welcomed. We should speak out against all forms of discrimination against minority groups. It is no coincidence that the populist True Finns party are the most vocal in their opposition to both immigrants and the Swedish-language in Finland.
Regarding the Hufvudstadsbladet article you have posted regarding the poll sponsored by the “Finnishness Association” (Suomalaisuuden litto) – an organisation with the declared goal of abolishing Swedish as a national language – as you no doubt read the article, you will have noticed the extremely leading question asked in the survey. As we have discussed before, it’s easy to manipulate surveys. It’s not hard to find a survey that supports one’s opinion.
Greetings Donnchadh!
Nice to see you back here again – happy new year. I think you are right that outsiders or newcomers to anything often try to over-compensate. Of course, many more immigrants are very understanding. They are often disproportionately from multilingual backgrounds and therefore find a the notion of a bilingual land nothing strange. It is interesting to note that the Swedish People’s Party has recently been the most forward-thinking in immigration matters.
Hello again Jokuvaan,
I think you make some good points on debate and public opinion surveys. The character of public debate has been changed by the arrival of the internet. Whilst newspaper debate and letters sections are moderated and edited, discussion forums, private blogs and the like are not. It is very easy for a vocal minority to ‘shout’ disproportionately loud. I think that can be seen very clearly on for example Suomi24′s discussion forums. Sometimes I think some of these comments are picked up by the old forms of media too easily. A good example in Swedish-speaking Finland would be that of the Swedish Centre Party district’s chairman Peter Albäck. He seems to attract an enormously disproportionate amount of media coverage principally because of his previous controversial blogging and comments on internet sites. In reality, the Centre Party receives an almost insignificant number of votes in Swedish-speaking Finland and thus one can question why he is given so much media time. Of course, controversy always interests readers and listeners.
Indeed, some Swedish-speakers have indeed written comments on newspaper articles that they would leave if the constitution is changed. I think that is an understandable emotional reaction. If Swedish was abolished as an official language, I would find my national identity challenged in a most confusing way. To feel unwelcome in your own country is something hard to deal with. I think it also true that the elderly often have a more discriminative view. They grew up in a time in which the so called language conflict was occurring or was at least in recent living memory. They also almost never knew the other language and ignorance can sometimes breed prejudice. Indeed, there are elderly Swedish-speakers who also have quite negative views on the Finnish-speaking population. Equally regrettable.
Wednesday 26.1.11 at 13:31
Timothy Bryan
Prometo,
“Swedish from Nyland, Östra-Nyland and Österbotten sounds awful when compared to Swedish in Sweden, you and I know it, and so do Swedes.”
I have asked every Swede I know or am friends with–the number spproaches 100 in Jönkoping and Uppsala–about whether they like the dialect/accent in Finland. Not one has expressed a negative view of Finland-Swedish.
If your patently false statement is true, why are all of these people lying to me, an American, whom they would have no interest in misleading?
Wednesday 26.1.11 at 13:58
Jonas
Hi Timothy, Prometo’s comments on Swedish in Finland in his most recent post were so uninformed that I couldn’t even be bothered to comment upon them. For a start, we don’t speak rikssvenska in Finland. Rikssvenska is generally, in Finland, a generic term for Sweden-Swedish, whilst in Sweden (and also often in our usage) it refers to the standard form of Swedish in Sweden, i.e. roughly the Stockholm accent which used to be preferred in tv/radio etc. ‘Högsvenska’ is the equivalent in Finland, i.e. standard finlandssvenska – based upon the language as spoken in Helsingfors/Helsinki. Just as in Sweden, in the early days of radio/tv, you would only ever really hear the standard form in news reports etc.
As I said previously, opinion on what accent or dialect sounds nice is a question of personal taste. You could find a lot of people in Sweden from Norrland, Skåne, Göteborg and so on who think that stereotypical rikssvenska as spoken in a classic Stockholm upper-class accent is pretty patronising and unpleasant sounding. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t think it has anything to do with this topic, so I am not going to start expressing my own personal views on ever significant accent and dialect of the Swedish-language here.
Thursday 27.1.11 at 17:36
Prometo
Hi Jonas,
Do you have an email address?
I would like to respond to your comments and points outside of this forum.
Thursday 27.1.11 at 18:12
Jeppisbo
I am from Österbotten. It’s nice to know we are all hillbillies up here. Maybe when people like Prometo and Timo Soini get in charge, we will all be deported to Åland anyway. The 1930s atmosphere in some debate on this subject on various internet sites makes it feel really extra good to be Finnish right now.
Thursday 27.1.11 at 20:12
Jonas
Hi Prometo,
I have an e-mail address, but I do not wish to get into private correspondence regarding this. I do not have the time. Why can you not further engage in the discussion on the blog?