Finland’s new prime minister, the national coalition party’s Jyrki Katainen, made his first foreign trip to Sweden yesterday. In Stockholm he met with Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt. Reinfeldt and Katainen have known each other for many years as they were both active in their respective parties’ youth organisations at roughly the same time. Reinfeldt heads Sweden’s Moderate Party, our western neighbour’s ideological equivalent of Katainen’s party.
Following their meeting, the pair hosted a press conference at Rosenbad, the Swedish government’s press centre. These two prime ministers, both of countries which have Swedish as their official languages, conducted it in English. I think it is fair to guess that this was not at Reinfeldt’s insistence. There is something very strange about the Prime Minister of the bilingual Finland choosing to speak English at a press conference with a Scandinavian neighbour. Can you imagine the Canadian prime minister visiting Paris and not conducting matters in French? It would be simply unthinkable.
Speaking afterwards, Katainen explained that he likes the Swedish language but that in such a situation he preferred to speak English because he had not given Swedish the time he should have earlier in life. He stressed that no symbolism should be read into his choice of language in Stockholm. Yet, how can one not see any symbolism? The Prime Minister of a bilingual country can not even manage to speak one of its official languages in a press conference in a Nordic context? Embarrassing at the very least. The assembled journalists must have certainly thought it odd.
In fairness to Katainen, he has notably made an effort to communicate in Swedish during last months electoral campaigning and government negotiation process here in Finland. His Swedish is not particularly good, but he has improved it since taking the chairmanship of his party. So, it is difficult to really argue that he has an utterly negative attitude towards Swedish as a language or to the people that speak it in this country. That said, he has been absent in any loud criticism of his party’s youth wing which is increasingly anti-Swedish (and anti-immigrant) in its attitudes. Above all, it is a sad day when a Finnish prime minister can not communicate with our Nordic neighbours without having to resort to a foreign language.
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Tuesday 28.6.11 at 17:16
Prometoo
Shock and horror! What a tragedy, what an abomination, Jyrki Katainen giving a new conference in English with his Swedish counterpart Fredrik Reinfeldt! What’s next, Swedish being removed as a mandatory school subject in Finland’s school’s so that Finnish children can spend more time and focus on learning such useless languages as English, Mandarin, Russian or German? Finland’s Swedish speaking population of less then 5 percent having to suffer the humiliation of having to communicate with a company’s customer service only in Finnish and English? Quel horreur!
There is something – so strange – about a Finnish prime minister giving a news conference in English, a language that both he and Prime Minister Reinfeldt are fully fluent in, and which happens to be the language of global diplomacy, instead of Swedish, a language that he is not fluent in at all. Why is Katainen behaving so stupidly?
(Seriously now
If Finland’s Swedish speaking population hovered around 25 percent of the population as the Frech speaking population does in Canada, and if a significant amount of those Swedish speakers did not speak any Finnish to begin with as is the case in Canada, then maybe there would be more of an incentive for a prime minister to learn the language. As only 4 percent of the population on mainland Finland is Finland-Swedish speaking, and they themselves speak Finnish fluently, maybe Katainen has other priorities then learning this particular language.
Did you know that Finnish has official status in both Finland and Sweden as well? Your opinion is as ridiculous as me saying that it’s very odd that the news conference was not given in Finnish. Did you know that these are the only 2 countries on Earth that have both languages official in some capacity (Finland has it official alongside Swedish and Sweden has it as an official minority language)
Symbolism…. Any observer the world over would not attach symbolism to the fact that a Finnish prime minsiter spoke in English in Stockholm, in a language that both he and Reinfeldt are fluent in. Why is Finnish not enough for you in Finland Jonas? This foreign language that you decry is also the one that you use in this blog. The assembled journalists (from the Swedish side) were probably thinking, wonderful, we do not have to hear a gauche (in accent and grammar) version of our language, difficult to understand and decipher, spoken by (Finland-swedish speaking Finns) people who claim it as their own and yet are out of touch with modern Swedish.
Speaking in English was a breathe of fresh 21st century air, and not a throwback to the times when Stockholm -was- the capital of what was then Finland and Finnish speakers had no rights to speak their language or use it in academia.
One last thing, being anti-Swedish language and anti-immigrant in Finland are not mutually exlusive. Immigrants in Finland are learning Finnish and adapting to the culture, and 80 percent of Finn’s who did not vote PS are seeing this in their day-to-day lives. Please stop spreading your propaganda and lies to an unkowing world who are not aware of the barbaric lengths that Finland-swedish speaking Finns have gone to block progress and truth.
Tuesday 28.6.11 at 19:12
Jarkko
I am sad to say that Finns have a very strange attitude towards languages in general. They seem to weirdly be surprised that the whole world doesn´t speak Finnish. If you go to Canaries, you see Finns trying to order beer in bars in Finnish. And take immigrants to Sweden. There are countless among the immigrants from Finland that came here to Sweden in there thousands during the 50s, 60s and 70s that never learned Swedish. Meanwhile, Latin Americans and Middle Easterners quickly have learned Swedish, with children of Iranian immigrants even outperforming native Swedes in educational achievement. Now these Finns are getting old they’re demanding elderly care in Finnish in Sweden. It’s not like Finnish (apart from in the north in limited numbers) is a native language here like Swedish in Finland. All a bit strange.
I am glad to say that my parents, originally from Kylmäkoski, are not like that, but lots of their friends are.
/Jarkko
Sollentuna, Sweden
Tuesday 28.6.11 at 20:28
Jonas
Hello Prometo,
I hope you had a good midsummer.
Unfortunately you demonstrate a lack of knowledge on the Swedish language, both on its status and speakers.
Finland has two official languages, as we know. Swedish is an official language in Finland constitutionally equal to Finnish. See the constitution, 17th paragraph. Note that the paragraph on language comes under the second chapter entitled ‘basic freedoms and rights’, a powerful term. In Sweden, Swedish is the official language. You are right to note that Finnish, as with Tornedal Finnish (meänkieli), Sami, Romani and Yiddish, have the status of minority languages in Sweden. This is not the same thing as an official language equal to, in Sweden’s case, Swedish. Although, it is interesting to note that Sweden did not have a law explicitly stating that Swedish was the official language until a couple of years ago (until that time Finland was the only country that officially spoke Swedish (!)). But of course, needless to say, it was obvious Swedish was the country’s national language before then.
Swedish as spoken by Swedish-speaking Finns is not difficult to understand for Swedish-speakers from Sweden. The press conference was held in Stockholm, and I am sure you’d find Stockholmers saying that they have a harder time understanding people from Skåne than Finland. The myth that somehow Swedish from Finland is incomprehensible in Sweden is often spread around in Finland by Finnish-speakers against Swedish-teaching to decry (by false means) the argument that Swedish facilitates inter-Nordic communication. In fact, there are a number of “celebrities” (tv personalities and the like) that are from Finland active in Sweden. Mark Levengood is even held in such high regard that he co-presented Swedish Television’s coverage of the Swedish Crown Princess Victoria’s wedding last summer. That is not to say that local dialects are not far more alive in the varieties of Swedish spoken in Finland than they are in Sweden, which has an all the more standardised form of speech even in everyday use. But, all Swedish-speakers in Finland can also speak a form of ‘högsvenska’ or what you might call ‘standard Finland-Swedish’. For instance, I would not speak the Borgå dialect when meeting someone from, for example, Nykarleby (or Stockholm). We should be proud that we have held on to our dialects. They are though dying out and our language is becoming all the more standardised. It is perhaps this matter of dialects that lends fuel to the myth I mentioned above.
I also do not know where you get your statistics on fluency in Finnish from. How do you measure it? How do you know that we are all fluent in Finnish? What does fluency mean? Does it mean when you are buying a litre of strawberries in the market or does it mean when you are having a heart attack and need to dial 112? Regardless, it is irrelevant. I, as other Swedish-speaking Finns, expect that services are organised in my mother tongue in my own country, certainly in those areas in which there are Swedish-speakers. I should not have to speak a third language. You write “why is Finnish not enough for you in Finland, Jonas?”. I can ask, why do you automatically assume Finland = Finnish? We Swedish-speakers also live here, it is also our country. Swedish is as much as part of Finland as the Finnish language is. Why is a Finland with two living languages a problem for you? Why would you have part of Finland’s heritage and culture amputated? On the other hand, I do not hate Finnish as you seem to be suggesting. On the contrary, it is a beautiful language that is very versatile. I wish that I had a better command of it. I probably am essentially fluent, but it is not my mother tongue. I do not have the same feel for any other language than my mother tongue. I am however not unreasonable. I would not go to Jyväskylä and walk into a shop and start speaking Swedish. Yet, how many Finnish-speakers think the same way? How many have migrated to Swedish-speaking areas during the last half century without any concern for the native language in the area they have moved to? These questions also deserve consideration.
Your statements about the period pre-1809 about the status of Finnish are also historically uninformed. You should read some history by Kari Tarkiainen or Matti Klinge. You will see that the Swedish authorities were not at all as anti-Finnish as the popular discourse, understandably influenced by nationalism in what is a young country, states today. Indeed, in 1809 it was the peasantry that were most against becoming a part of Russia rather than staying as part of Sweden. It was the upper-classes (which remember, in 1809, were disproportionately Swedish-speaking) that were most in favour of becoming a part of Russia as they saw the expanding, successful Russian Empire as a route to career advancement rather than sticking with the Swedish Empire that was in sharp decline. St Petersburg was seen as a world city with much to offer, the court in Stockholm as increasingly sterile.
Hi Jarkko,
Welcome to this blog. I can not really comment on what you say. But if true, it does indeed seem strange.
Wednesday 29.6.11 at 0:02
nollarton
Jarkko, you don’t need to go to Canary Islands to see that. Just go to Åland. Loads of Finnish-speaking tourists who walk into shops and bars in Mariehamn and greet with a cheery ‘terve’ as if it would never occur to them that they had left the Finnish-speaking world. MTV3 even once sent a correspondent to a do a report on tourism on Åland who couldn’t speak a word of Swedish. Great planning.
Wednesday 29.6.11 at 0:54
jokuvaan
Paranoia is one interesting perspective in this overall matter. Everybody knows that Katainen is very pro forced Swedish and pro official state bilingualism, he even refused to form any government without SFP and had a meeting with SFP’s chairman at the election night. Everybody also knows that his Swedish is poor. But he is not a fanatic of the ideology like some, he has better things to do than study marginal language that he very rarely needs.
Political generation before Katainen had poor english and somewhat good Swedish, now it’s otherway around. Human life has limited time and learning Swedish consumes it. Do you honestly believe that Katainen used english for any other reason than his poor Swedish?
Kari Tarkiainen’s book can be recommend only to those who are more familiar with the history. He has his own agenda, Swedish speaking finance sources, and due to this he leaves out very relevant information. Like not a single word about large number of small forts that were part of local defence system because it doesnt fit into modern svecoman ideology of “empty land seizure”.
Åbo Akademi&pals is writing a history serie of Finland and you dont need be a NASA engineer to figure out what sort of picture it paints.
Wednesday 29.6.11 at 12:06
Jonas
Hi Jokuvaan,
I was looking forward to your comment to this blog post
I actually thought I was pretty sympathetic to Katainen in my post. I am sure that his English is better than his Swedish (although I thought it was quite poor as well, listening to the press conference) and that is the reason. I agree he was very keen in having SFP in the government from the start, but I don’t think that was much to do with language matters, rather economics. He knew he was facing a coalition with left of centre parties and wanted to have some kind of support for his party’s economic policies, which are largely in line with SFP’s programme. I still think it is a sad day and marker post when a Finnish prime minister does such a thing, regardless of the actual individual.
No historian is unbiased, just as no person can ever be. But, I don’t think SLS steered Tarkiainen’s writing. They hardly are censors. I have more faith in the freedom of expression, especially after some of the things they have produced lately. As for ‘empty land seizure’, I wouldn’t say that is what he or other recent authors state. On the contrary, they repute the oft-repeated mantra (especially in Sweden) that what is now Finland was populated by unsophisticated, backwards types. The recent writers have stated that there was a functional society with hierarchies much the same as existed in e.g. Småland. Småland, as what is now Finland, were incorporated in the Swedish realm in very much the same way. No one states that Svealand occupied Småland or went to war with it to conquer it, as we sometimes hear about Finland. Both were incorporated into the Swedish realm gradually. There is considerable evidence to suggest that the local chieftains in what is now Pirkanmaa/Birkaland were quite glad of the protection that the relatively powerful Swedish state offered against the threat of Karelian and Russian tribes. But, of course, history can be interpreted in many ways.
Thursday 30.6.11 at 0:25
Donnchadh
Jonas
I would agree with your assessment that it is regrettable for a represenative of the Finnish state to decline the opportunity to use one of the official state languages in a relevant context. Of course, one can understand and sympathise with Katainen if he felt his command of Swedish was embarassingly weak. We’ve probably all been in that kind of situation at some time. And it would no doubt have been rather explosive in political terms to have used Finnish and a translator. So perhaps English was a pragmatic compromise. But it conveys an unfortunate message nonetheless.
One thing I do find fascinating however is the idea of English functioning as a neutral, non-threatening third language. For some minority languages in the UK and in North America, the dominance and impact of English (and the economic, political and cultural ascendancy of English-speakers) is probably the single greatest threat to existence.
It is therefore interesting to speculate about the long-term implications of the kind of scenario you report. Certainly, the degree to which English is becoming dominant in business, political and even some social contexts is an intriguing feature of many modern northern and western European countries. The scenario in which an educated, successful individual conducts his or her professional life primarily through the medium of English, and goes home to a Swedish, German or Dutch-speaking home is considerably more common than might have been expected even ten years ago.
Does this pose a threat to the long-term future of languages like Swedish and Finnish? That potential presumably exists, although obviously neither is going to die out tomorrow. But there are undoubtedly strong parallels with the pattern of erosion experienced by traditional minority languages – in particular the situation in which the political and professional elite of a country/community increasingly come to transact business and interact on a day-to-day basis through the medium of English. And crucially, unlike Latin in earlier times, English is not a language confined merely to the elite. It has a huge impact on popular culture and a vast cultural output which genuinely rewards the effort put into learning and using it.
So how long before Finland’s Prime Minister (or Sweden’s for that matter) starts conducting domestic press conferences in English as well? And in a hundred years, will Finnish and Swedish end up as the language of the elderly, the uneducated and the underclass?
Perhaps it would be wise for Finnish and Swedish speakers to value each other a little more and to acknowledge the possibility that the long-term threat may come from somewhere else entirely? Food for thought, at least.
Thursday 30.6.11 at 11:53
Timothy Bryan
Prometoo,
It is interesting that you compare the status of Swedish in relation to French in Canada, because I live very close to that province–by the way, it is not only Quebec where a great many french speakers live there.
In Quebec, French is the language of the majority of the population, and most speak no English at all (or refuse to even if they do). This is why their numbers do well in comparison, and is the reason why in åland there is no danger to losing its language identity.
Several times in the past Jonas has spoke of the fact that Swedish majority areas around Helsinki have been swamped by Finnish speakers who have relocated there. I think it is fair to say that if their approach was as hostile to Finns as I read toward Swedish-speaking Finns, then there would have been a big problem. Instead, it would appear to me that Jonas and most Swedish-speaking Finns are open and accepting to their brothers of other ethnic groups, and merely want their national language to be respected, not driven to extinction.
Friday 1.7.11 at 14:33
Jonas
It is almost taboo to bring up the subject, but Timothy is essentially right. Of course, far from all Finnish-speakers who have moved to the originally strongly Swedish-speaking areas on the south coast (areas like Sibbo, Sjundeå, Kyrkslätt, Borgå and so on) are like that. Most are probably simply ignorant and don’t realise the effect on the Swedish-speaking culture that the swift demographic change has had. But, unfortunately a significant number are actually hostile. This seems to be particularly amongst new comers, people from areas of Finland with no (recent) history of two language groups in any significant number. The original long-standing Finnish-speaking population on the south coast never seem to have a problem with Swedish-speakers. If you look at places like Sibbo where the demographics have changed extremely quickly, it is often here were the relations between the language groups are the worst. It is almost as if there is some kind of “now we are the majority, it’s pay-back time” mentality in some of these places.
But as I said, expressing this kind of thing openly is almost taboo – because it arguably in itself causes more hostility and it is certainly the sort of thing that will provoke some very “hot” replies here (if anyone is reading during this hot summer weather we’re having!).
Hi Donnchadh,
Thanks for your comments. I agree that we also need to watch the threat from other non-domestic languages when it comes to domain loss, i.e. English. As you suggest, that applies just as much to Finnish. Interesting, SFP actually issued a press release on this subject during the election campaign – I can’t recall the details, but it will be on SFP’s website (I don’t have time to dig it out right now), but it was certainly concerned with both Swedish AND Finnish. Already university students in economics and medicine and so on are expected to read lots of texts in English. There is no problem in that per se, but in some cases this occurs because there is no available comparable text in Finnish/Swedish – that is certainly a problem. If we no longer write about certain topics, we will soon forget the vocabulary to discuss them.
I can not see people’s working lives switching entirely to English however. I think even people like myself who think ourselves to be pretty fluent in it, actually aren’t really that fantastic. I think we sometimes underestimate the strength of grounding we have in our native tongues. And I also think Finnish is so dominate demographically, that the majority would see little point for a third-language to overcome the language gap. They’d just expect Swedish-speakers to put up with it when Swedish service can’t be offered.
Sorry not to have time to write a more considered, intelligent response.
Sunday 3.7.11 at 18:16
Stockholmare
Prometoo
You are completely wrong about Finland-Swedish not being understood in Sweden. It is actually an unusually clear form of Swedish due to the way it is pronounced. Danes and Norwegians find it easier to understand Finland Swedish people than Swedes. Similarly, people from the Faeroes that speak Danish are easier to understand than the Danes themselves for most other Scandinavian language speakers.
That said, there can be some minor problems for people who are not expecting to hear Finland Swedish. They simply don’t realize it exists and then are surprised when they hear it. But then, that happens with all multi-state languages. Finnish is pretty rare in being almost exclusively spoken in one state. Look at English, how many times have American TV channels subtitled Scottish people, and just lately the English pop star Cheryl Cole was reconsidered as a judge on an American TV show because they determined that too many Americans would not understand her north-east English accent. Still, I am not sure you will find people writing that the Americans and the British don’t understand each other and that if you learned English in the USA, people in the UK will not comprehend you.
Monday 4.7.11 at 18:45
Anonymous
I can confirm the above. Finland-Swedish is ideal for Scandinavian communication.
The analogy is only partial, though, since Danish is a foreign language to the Faroese, unlike Finland-Swedish to the Finland-Swedes
Monday 4.7.11 at 18:46
Anonymous
That comment was by me. Somehow my login failed.
Monday 4.7.11 at 18:47
Anonymous
Failed again. You’ll have to guess, I suppose
Wednesday 17.8.11 at 6:56
nimi
^I forgot to say this.
Every euro spent on this madness is too much. Unfortunately the damage is already done. We have spent tens of billions of money on this bullshit and we pretty have got nothing from it. Bilingulism will be over within 20 years but I will never forgive the damage that it has done and the money lost!
And all this for such a small stupid thing.
Wednesday 17.8.11 at 14:42
Jonas
Hello “nimi”, In fact I have not censored anything, yet. Your long first posting was flagged up by WordPress for moderation, I have only just logged into my blog since you wrote all of your comments – I do not always have time to make multiple (or even single) visits to my blog during the day, I have a job and family too and this is a hobby.
I assume your first entry was marked for moderation because it contains both a weblink and some quite offensive language. I am more than happy for you to contribute here, but please observe that I will not have my blog covered with offensive language. We have several contributors who are very much against the current status of Swedish, as you may see from previous comments on other entries. But, whilst the debate may often get very lively, they by-and-large manage to keep their language clean and their arguments reasoned. Right now, I do not have time to edit your entires to make them suitable for publication – I will try to do so when I have time. You may call that censorship if you like (technically, it is), but this is at the end of the day my blog, and as I said, I shall not tolerate the sort of abusive wording you have used and will censor such language. The newspapers would similarly not publish such language in a letter to the editor or on their debate pages. Thanks.
Wednesday 17.8.11 at 15:02
Anonymous
I respect your your opinion. I know i shouldn’t such language. This case just makes me really angry when the people that are trying to defend the status of Finnish-Swedish with really dumb arguments.
Saturday 20.8.11 at 5:39
werf@a.com
OMG
First you put my comment back on. But then when you know you cant answer any of my questions, you delete it again. Pathetic….
Stop using Finland’s tax money. There are a lot of things that need money before your 5%(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) minority’s language!
Monday 22.8.11 at 14:30
Jonas
Hello anonymous, I have not done any of those things you allege, in fact, this is the first time I have logged on to my blog since my last comment on 17.8. I would appreciate it if you do not comment here if you can not keep your language sensible.
I will now delete all your entries containing bad language, this blog is moderated to ensure discussion is civilised, something you seem incapable of.
Monday 22.8.11 at 15:31
Rasmus
We have spent tens of billions of money on this bullshit”.
Really Nimi? The only fully researched and costed report showed that if you take into the account the amount of tax revenue Swedish-speaking Finns generate and then subtract the costs associated with state services in Swedish, you still have money left over. Of course, that’s not how tax works – one group of Finnish citizens’ taxation revenue is not ring-fenced for a certain aspect of spending (i.e. just because I don’t have cancer, it doesn’t mean to say I can withhold my tax money from going to the general fund which is then used to pay for cancer health services), but it does make the case that it the cost is not really significant and is even worth spending, as if there were less Swedish-speakers, the state would lose revenue overall.
Interestingly, the report stated that this relatively high tax revenue was not because Swedish-speakers were all rich, as the stereotype often banded about says, but because on average they have longer working lives. This was largely down to better health, Swedish-speakers are massively less likely to retire early on a sick pension compared to the rest of the population. So, in other words, they also “use up” less state revenue as well.
Anyway, we are all Finns. My tax revenue also goes to fund Finnish-speaking services here in Raseborg, even though Swedish is the majority language here. And I certainly have no problem with that! Imagine how a Finnish-speaking person would feel if he or she walked into the town hall in Ekenäs and the Swedish-speaking person behind the counter refused to speak to them in Finnish – well, that feeling is just how many Swedish-speakers whose family have lived in the same place for centuries often are made to feel when they walk into some kind of office in their home place and the person behind the counter can’t speak to them in their own language.
“Stop using Finland’s tax money. There are a lot of things that need money before your 5%(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) minority’s language!”
So you would support the ending of Finnish language services in municipalities such as as Pedersöre, Malax, Nykarleby etc where you’d presumably think that there are a lot of things that need the local municipal tax money more than the minority’s language?
“And all this for such a small stupid thing.”
Do you really think the ability to access services in your own mother tongue is a small stupid thing? You seem pretty angry and passionate about your point about languages, imagine if you couldn’t get services in Finnish? Would you think that was a small stupid thing too? For us Finnish people who have Swedish as our mother tongue, it is no small stupid thing to be able to go to hospital or school or fill in complicated tax forms in our native language, the one we have always spoken in our country. I sometimes think it is worth considering what life would be like if the shoe was on the other foot before commenting – ett folk, två språk!
Wednesday 24.8.11 at 2:40
werf@a.com
JONAS
“I would appreciate it if you do not comment here if you can not keep your language sensible.”
– My language has been sensible after my first message. Then you warned me about it and I said Im sorry. After that I sent just a short message which didnt contain any bad language.
I dont see my first message anymore. I dont know my and who deleted it if it wasnt you. If you see the message still please answer my questions Jonas.
RASMUS
“The only fully researched and costed report showed that if you take into the account the amount of tax revenue Swedish-speaking Finns generate and then subtract the costs associated with state services in Swedish, you still have money left over.”
– This is probably true. I dont know for sure though. But Im sure that the money that is left over is not alot. So now that pretty much all of your tax money has been spent on your language, you should pay extra for using public roads, medicare…… everything else! So thats what you are saying? Fine with me as long as we dont spend billions on some 5%(!!!!!) minority’s language anymore.
” Of course, that’s not how tax works – one group of Finnish citizens’ taxation revenue is not ring-fenced for a certain aspect of spending………
– You are absolutely right here so why did you even write that…?
” Imagine how a Finnish-speaking person would feel if he or she walked into the town hall in Ekenäs and the Swedish-speaking person behind the counter refused to speak to them in Finnish”
– Guess what happened when I went to Åland? I’m sure you know I wasn’t able to speak Finnish there. What do you think about Finnish citizens that are Russian-Finnish, do you think they get services in Russian? Not really. Why do you think you are the only minority that deserves to have your language as official. There are alot of Estonian, Somalian, Russian ,English etc… people but nobody is asking for such priviledges. Five percent is such a small amount of people that if that is enough for having a language official, then Somalian with 0.24% speakers should be official too.
And about Åland, it’s disgusting how I cant buy property from there even though I’m Finnish!??! That’s some racism right there!
“So, in other words, they also “use up” less state revenue as well”
– Are you serious? You can’t say that. That is completely irrelevant in this case! I dont use alcohol but Im not asking for benefits either. I still accept that alcoholics are treated with my tax money. But it has nothing to do with this!
“So you would support the ending of Finnish language services in municipalities such as as Pedersöre….”
– Some Finnish cities that have a large populations of Finnish-Swedish citizens could still have two official languages. But “pakkoruotsi” should exist nowhere. It’s sick how kids in eastern Finland can’t take Russian language in school because that would be too much since they have mandatory Swedish.
It is just so hard for me to understand how you can be so greedy. If you don’t know the language that almost everyone is using then you better learn it! And most of you do speak fluent Finnish. Why do you require services in Swedish then?
If I go to school in France that has 19 students and me (yes 95% of the class speaks French), are they going to teach all the other kids Finnish or will they tell me to learn French?
Like you probably know Rasmus, none of the thing you said where valid arguments. I have discussed this thing with a lot of people but I still have never heard a valid argument so dont worry ur okay…
Monday 29.8.11 at 15:32
werf@a.com
So you have nothing to say? I know its hard to defend something that even yourself dont belive in.
Tuesday 30.8.11 at 1:16
A
OMG
So you use sensorship like most of the Finnish media on this case?
You can’t answer simple questions so you delete them so that others can not see them either. That is not very civilized. Is this the North Korea or what?
I was not using ANY improper language in my posts so there is no reason for you to delete them.
I would like to know how do you feel about defending bilingualism with such bad ethic. Do you even feel shame about it or do you just laugh and celebrate when they are nit making anything to change it.
There are thousands of people like me in the internet that fight for this madness to end. 75% (atleast) of Finns want to end bilingualism. It’s not fair at all right now for us.
I dont even know why im writing to you. I know it’s not going to change your opinion. But I just would
like to know how some people dont have any moral in them. I dont even want to know what other thingsyou are doing besides this…
How can someone ever put a tiny minority language infront of hospitals that save thousands of lives…
Think about it.. It’s really sad.
There is probably alot of mistakes because im
Wtiting on my phone.
Tuesday 30.8.11 at 1:51
nini
Jonas, your headline is just as ridiculous as this whole website. There is no such thing as Swinskfinland. And Finland is a highly monolingual country where many languages are spoken. The two most spoken languages are Finnish (official) and english. That’s the truth regarding “bilingual” Finland, your own lying notwithstanding. It’s too bad that your writings have no honor nor integrity, they are just funny!.
Tuesday 30.8.11 at 18:31
Rasmus
“And Finland is a highly monolingual country where many languages are spoken. ”
I see, I see. Highly monolingual with many languages. Right. And the Finnish national poet wrote in which language? Arguably the most famous Finnish books (about a certain family of white troll-like figures) were written in which language? Yes, yes, silly me. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t also find your writings funny. Perhaps best not to write at 1.51 in the morning after a few too many glasses of Kossu.
Wednesday 31.8.11 at 2:21
werf@a.com
Rasmus. So you dont have anything to say about the things that i told you a couple messages earlier? You are using the same tactics that all the others that support your side. Just avoiding all the facts and saying things that dont matter at all.
Wednesday 31.8.11 at 13:31
Jonas
Hello nimi,
Again, I remind you of what I said earlier: this blog is a hobby. I have a job that keeps me very occupied. I also have a family. I don’t have time to visit this blog every day anymore as you can see from the frequency of my blog postings. This is the first time I have come back since your messages which I have not censored, but were flagged up for moderation. Not much I can do about that but sorry if it made you impatient. I don’t have time to address your remarks now but I would say that they sound bitter. I’d remind you that my tax money also goes to fund healthcare and other essential services. I expect also to be able to use them should I need to. Rasmus makes this point far better than I have time to do now – although, I would have thought it was obvious.
Thursday 1.9.11 at 2:14
werf@a.com
Ofcourse Im bitter. Im really mad that you use my tax money for something that most (99% of Finns) people dont need. Wouldnt you be bitter about that?
I say we make Kazakh language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_language same amount of speakers as Swedish ) mandatory for all the kids that go to school in Finland. I also want to make it the third official language!
It good to know different languages so it would not be bad at all to know Kazakh language. I dont know if we need the language here but im sure it would be good to know it. Trilinguality is richness!
What would Kazakh people feel if they couldn’t get services in their own language in Finland?
Does this sound absurd? Well, it’s the exact same thing that you are saying to me about Swedish.
SICK
Thursday 1.9.11 at 8:21
Rasmus
Hello anonymous person of many and no names,
I didn’t see your previous message until now. But, I would say that your arguments are not really arguments – just the usual prejudices and similarly you don’t address my questions. You seem to think that it’s better money used on Swedish is spent on other things – but don’t forget Swedish-speakers also need to be able to access healthcare and so on. And Finnish-speakers living in majority Swedish areas do too, so if we followed your logic, I assume that places like Raseborg should stop using tax money on providing services in the minority language of Finnish because it would be better to spend the money on roads, no?
You also use the example of Åland. Perhaps you fell asleep in politics and history classes, but Åland is constitutionally an autonomous area of Finland that is unilingually Swedish. This dates back from the League of Nations settlement after the dispute between Finland and Sweden over whether Åland should be a part of Sweden or Finland. The League decided as a compromise that Åland should be Finnish – but with guaranteed unilingual Swedish status. So, you can essentially say that Åland is not a part of Finland when it comes to language legislation. I am not expressing an opinion on what goes on there with the local citizenship rules vis-a-vis property etc as it is nothing to do with this, you can’t use it to hit Swedish-speaking Finns in Finland over the head. We are not responsible for what goes on there.
Why can children not learn Russian? The logic that they can’t be taught Russian because they are being taught Swedish is ludicrous. There is no legal impediment to stop them taking Russian classes today. So very few hours are spent on Swedish in Finnish schools anyway. Is the Finnish-speaking brain too small to learn more than two other languages? I certainly don’t think it is! I studied Finnish, English and German at school in addition to classes in my mother tongue. Having to study Finnish didn’t stop me from being able to have classes in English and German. I don’t understand the argument. If you are against compulsory Swedish, why would it be any better to directly replace it with another compulsory language? Odd argument if you ask me.
I also don’t understand the argument of “most of you speak fluent Finnish, why do you require services in Swedish then?”. I am from Finland. This is my home country. My native language is Swedish, one of the native languages in my home country. Why on earth should I not be able to speak my own native tongue in my own native land? Am I a second class citizen? Also, you would be surprised, we don’t all speak flawless Finnish – especially in crisis situations. For example, think about if you are having a heart attack and have to ring 112. You can barely speak your mother tongue let along have to struggle to find words in Finnish and remember your address in Finnish. Elderly Swedish-speakers have actually been in this situation and who knows, it is not out of the question that someone could die because of it. I am sure that would please you though,as you seem to have a hatred for non-Finnish speakers.
Thursday 1.9.11 at 11:44
Jonas
Well, of course, you have a right to be bitter if you wish. But all that negativity can’t be too healthy. I am certainly not angry that my tax money goes towards funding services in Finnish which I largely don’t use, nor am I angry it goes to fund education programmes for hairdressers, or car mechanics despite the fact that I have never taken part in either. Nor am I bitter that my tax money helps fund cancer healthcare even though I have never had cancer, or that it funds unemployment benefits even though I have a well paid job. We live in a Nordic welfare state based upon a certain amount of solidarity, this is not the United States. All of us that pay tax know that it helps to fund things that we don’t necessarily use. That’s how things work. In any case, your statistics are somewhat out!
Your point in the Kazakh language is just bizarre and barely worth responding to. Since when was Kazakh a native language spoken by a large number of Finland’s native population? The two principal language groups amongst the population of Finland have been Finnish and Swedish for centuries.
You should read Rasmus’ entry, he makes good points in more detail that I have time for just now. Especially regarding Åland. It’s quite common that hardline people intolerant of Swedish use Finnish’s lack of status in Åland and even in Sweden as a reason to criticise Swedish-speaking Finns in Finland as if we are somehow responsible for how Åland and Sweden implement language policy. We are not.
He also makes a good point about language teaching. There is a genuine problem with language teaching in Finland just now, of both the national languages and foreign languages. Pupils of both language groups often give dissatisfied feedback about teaching in the other national language (Finnish in Swedish-speaking schools, Swedish in Finnish-speaking schools). The teaching is staid and concentrates too much on grammar whilst it should perhaps focus more on real-world situations so that pupils are confident to actually use the language when they emerge from school. This is something that needs to be worked at, the curriculum and teaching methods need updating. Also, the Finnish medium schools start teaching Swedish far too late in the pupil’s career. Rasmus is also right, it is ridiculous to put Swedish and Russian against each other. It is perfectly possible to learn both! The fact that Swedish is a compulsory subject does not prevent the teaching of Russian.
Thursday 1.9.11 at 23:45
Skäribo
I would ignore this werf nimi person. Usual anti-Swedish hate speech. Probably hates immigrants too and votes for Timo Soini. Sad that our country’s level of debate has been taken over by types like this, especially on internet where it’s easy for them to block out all reasoned discussion by shouting loudly.
And what is he talking about with censorship? This is a private blog of someone, why does he think he has some absolute right to have whatever he wants to be published on it? It might be a human right to have a view, but it is not to publish anything you please at your own conditions on someone else’s website. Start your own if you want to do that!
Friday 2.9.11 at 2:50
werf@a.com
RASMUS:
(I didn’t read the whole text beforing I started answering and answered it bit by bit. So some things might sound weird……)
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”but don’t forget Swedish-speakers also need to be able to access healthcare and so on. ”
-They do. Like I said earlier, I have never met a Finnish-Swedish person who didn’t speak Finnish! Im sure there are people that dont speak Finnish but hell we cant use 4% of Finland’s annual budget just to provide services for a group that is maybe ONE PERCENT of Finland’s population. That is just absurd! I can’t understand though how do you think that Swedish speakers are more important than for example Russian speaking Finns. You are not doing anything that they’d be served in their own language. Im too tired to look it up but im sure there are enough of Russian speaking Finnish people that they deserve their language to be official too. If 5% Swedes is enough, then what ever amount of Russians is enough.
However though in my opinion every person in what ever country should know the majority’s language and stop whining. The situation (bilinguality 90% vs 5%) that we have in Finland is not possible in any other country in the world. I have talked about Finland’s bilinguality with people from many different countries. Even Sweden thinks it stupid. Sweden has also a big (maybe a little bit smaller than our bilingual population) but they dont have Finnish official. And they shouldnt.
”– but don’t forget Swedish-speakers also need to be able to access healthcare and so on. And Finnish-speakers living in majority Swedish areas do too, so if we followed your logic, I assume that places like Raseborg should stop using tax money on providing services in the minority language of Finnish because it would be better to spend the money on roads, no? ”
-Like I said earlier, areas that have a high amount of Swedish speaking people could stay bilingual and Swedish people could get services in Swedish. ”Pakkoruotsi” however needs to stop everywhere!
”You also use the example of Åland………… ”
-I am very aware of Ålands history. I know how they got their autonomity.
We should let them be independet and stop giving them hundreds of millions of euros every year. They shouldn’t require communication in Swedish though.
RKP is also using Åland as a tool to support their own cause ; ”Ahvenanmaa saattaa irrottautua Suomesta, jos ruotsinkielen asemaa edelleen heikennetään, uhkaa Suomenruotsalaisten kansankäräjien puheenjohtaja, kansanedustajaAnna-Maja Henriksson(r). ” http://www.hs.fi/politiikka/artikkeli/Ruotsinkielisten+nokkanainen+Ahvenanmaa+saattaa+irrottautua+Suomesta/1135250899355 (Yes, in Finnish because Im sure that you are fluent in Finnish like most Finnish-Swedish people)
But your pretty much right in this one. Åland is a big problem too though and it needs to go also!
”Why can children not learn Russian? The logic that they can’t be taught Russian because they are being taught Swedish is ludicrous. ”
-Of course they can. Swedish just takes too much time. It’s not that much but the time per day that you spend studying has a limit. Every hour that you spend studying English is away from anaother language.
”why would it be any better to directly replace it with another compulsory language? ”
-I dont know if I said that. Im pretty sure I didnt but I might have accidentally done that. I absolutely DO NOT think Russian should be compulsory either! But it definetly should be possible to take Russian instead of Swedish!
”I am from Finland. This is my home country. My native language is Swedish, one of the native languages in my home country ”
-Ok here is the big problem! You are absolutely right about what you said!
However things have changed since the law about native languages was made. Before there was way more Swedish speakers than today. I think I read somewhere that in 1920′s there was a 20% Swedish speaking minority. Today, almost a hundread years after that the number is 5%. The conditions are completely different now. Im sure Swedish will be made an official minority language (what ever they call it. The same thing that Finnish has in Sweden) in the future.
You just cant hold on to the rights that you have had before. Sometimes you just need to let go. I cant. I could have had a slave working for me 150 years ago in the USA but I cant do it anymore since the law prohibits that today. Times change….
I totally understand that right now under the law we have today you are right about all these things that you deserve services in Swedish. Im just trying to convince you that it’s wrong and Swedish needs to be just a minority language.
”Elderly Swedish-speakers have actually been in this situation and who knows, it is not out of the question that someone could die because of it. I am sure that would please you though,as you seem to have a hatred for non-Finnish speakers. ”
-I don’t have any hatred against them. I dont agree with some of their opinions but it’s too much to call it hatred! I have many Finnish-Swedish friends. I also have a Finnish-Swedish grandmother. She didnt speak any Finnish as a child but is now fluent. She doesn’t ask for Swedish services. Actually my mom and sister support bilingualism and I talk about this with them a lot. It’s sad that some people don’t understand this. Finns are always taught that Swedish is really important to know. Most Finns are really dumb but atleast some young people are starting to understand this .
Friday 2.9.11 at 3:01
werf@a.com
“I would ignore this werf nimi person. Usual anti-Swedish hate speech. Probably hates immigrants too and votes for Timo Soini”
Nope, I didn’t vote for PERUS. I have a Finnish-Swedish grandmother. I also have friends that are Finnish-Swedish, black, asian etc… IM NOT RACIST AT ALL!
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And there is a comment section for this blog so why not use it if I don’t agree with the text?. But fine then, I will leave this blog.
I just hope that they will make a vote for the existence of bilinguality. Most Finns wants it to go.
STOP LIVING IN THE PAST….
Tuesday 27.9.11 at 13:17
Anonymous
It is interesting that you compare Finland and Canada in their language policies. Canadian official bilingualism has been defined as follows: “A bilingual country is not one where all the inhabitants necessarily have to speak two languages; rather it is a country where the principal public and private institutions must provide services in two languages to the citizens, the vast majority of whom may well be unilingual.” Reflecting this, Calgary dropped mandatory French from their schools. Reflecting this, the individual politician Katainen must not necessarily be fluent in Swedish.
Here are a few things of many that separate the language situation in the 2 coutries, too:
1. Finland’s linguistic minority comprises of ca. 5% of Swedish speakers whereas ca. every fourth Canadian is Francophone.
2. Canada’s Francophone population is mostly concentrated in Quebec, which is Canada’s largest province enabling self-governance and self-funding. This situation cannot be compared to Åland and the Swedophone municipalities of Finland. Finland’s bilingualism is maintained by funding which seems very disproportionate in figures.
3. French still enjoys an international role. Swedish has never.
The fact that Finland’s politicians and commerce nolonger see necessary to use Swedish domestically or abroad only reflects the actual situation in Finland: Swedish appears nolonger particularly needed nor helpful (in comparison to other languages). Simply put (but closing in on another taboo issue?) the prestige language status which may have helped Swedish survive in Finland thus far seems to diminish all the time. Swedish speakers have a serious job in convincing the majority that their mother tongue should still enjoy a countrywide official status in the 21st century. I believe without this justification, Finland’s constitution will be changed within the next 30 years and Swedish will become a domicile language just like Finland’s 3 Sami languages.
It is a very common trait of this sort of conversation that the above will be labeled anti-Swedish. On the contrary, it is my sincere opinion that after 700 years, Swedish is part of Finland just as the sauna is. However, the world has changed a lot since the 19th century and an update on Finland’s language policy to reflect the reality seems long due.
Tuesday 27.9.11 at 19:46
Jonas
Hello anonymous,
Welcome to this blog and thank you for your comment!
Well, by definition your entry is anti-Swedish as it against Swedish being an official language in a country in which it is a native tongue. But, it is not as intolerant as much of the debate by a small, but vocal minority that often takes place on the internet on this subject (e.g. on the discussion pages of Suomi24.fi). I suspect that’s what you were hinting at. I certainly would not accuse you of being so from your comments which are clearly anything but. An exchange of different views is interesting.
It is certainly unthinkable for a Canadian prime minister to not say some words in French when addressing the public, let alone when travelling to a majority French-speaking country. That is the case even though both languages are not compulsory in the education system. It is hard to imagine one could come to be the director of even a very Swedish-speaking municipality without being able to speak the other domestic language, Finnish.
As others have stated, Finland’s bilingualism does not cost that much. However, it is rather hard to really reach an understanding in monetary terms of its expense. After all, if one adds on the benefits, it may actually not cost anything at all. It’s all about how you do your sums. How do you attribute a justifiable sum of money for the benefits bought by Nordic cooperation or trade, and how do you put a value on the ability for a significant group of the native population to be able to speak and be understood in their own mother tongue in their own native land? It is probably impossible. Not everything comes down to raw economics. There is surely also a cost of turning a home land into a foreign country for nearly 300 000 of its citizens.
Territorially, Swedish-speakers did once primarily live in relatively unilingual areas, of the style in which only a few places remain today at municipal level (e.g. Larsmo, Korsnäs, Pedersöre). Today that is not the case in most places, especially in Nyland/Uusimaa, although even here there are not insignificant rural areas within municipalities that are almost entirely Swedish-speaking*. But you must remember, this is not because the Swedish-speakers have disappeared – but because Finnish-speakers have moved in. This has happened within just a few generations during the twentieth century. For example, tere are more individual Swedish-speakers living in Esbo/Espoo today than at any time in its history, but as a percentage they have never been fewer. 4/5 people in elderly homes in Sibbo are Swedish-speaking, but at the opposite end of the age spectrum (pre-school) the situation is now barely 1/3. It is hardly the fault of Swedish-speakers that Finnish-speakers have chosen to move to core areas in Svenskfinland and caused demographic change. I do not suggest for a moment that people should not be allowed to move – they should; we are all Finns. But, it would be nice if some respect was shown and the Finnish majority realise that Swedish has been a part of these areas for centuries and people should continue to be able to live their life through it should they so wish.
* = As an example of what I mean: I live in a municipality in Nyland that is today made up of 32% Swedish-speakers. But, in the election results for the last municipal election (which is the last time in which the votes were counted in individual counting areas that roughly coincided with the main individual villages/districts), 67% of the electorate in my individual counting area voted for the Swedish People’s Party. In one area, 94% of the votes went to SFP. This is of course not a guaranteed way of identifying how many Swedish-speakings live in these individual areas: contrary to popular opinion, not all Swedish-speakers vote for SFP, and even the odd Finnish-speaker occasionally does. But it certainly does give an indication.
Thursday 29.9.11 at 2:46
werf@a.com
“Well, by definition your entry is anti-Swedish as it against Swedish being an official language in a country in which it is a native tongue. But, it is not as intolerant as much of the debate by a small, but vocal minority that often takes place on the internet on this subject (e.g. on the discussion pages of Suomi24.fi)”
Dont you understand the frustration that we have about this case? It should be the Swedish people trying to convince us why Swedish should remain as an official language. Now it’s the huge majority of Finns doing all the work of convincing you to change Swedish’ status.
Thursday 29.9.11 at 11:24
Jonas
Hello again Werf, I personally think there is little to no role for the Swedes to play in deciding these matters. Swedish rule ended in 1809. Perhaps you should try to understand how depressing (not to mention offensive) it is for Swedish-speaking Finns to have to hear all this hatred and the discourse that we are somehow not ‘proper’ Finns.
Monday 3.10.11 at 20:17
Anonymous
Thanks for a reply to my writing on 9/27.
My comments can maybe be interpreted as anti-Swedish in nature if one has adopted the idea of Swedish being eternally an official language in all of Finland. However, being against Finland’s version of country-wide officiality doesn’t mean anti-Swedish per se.
You don’t have to travel far from the Swedish-speaking areas domestically nor far from Finland to see that this Finnish dogma has lost its ground decades ago.
According to my own observations of the situation both domestically and in comparison to other multiligual countries/areas, what Finland-Swedish really amounts to in today’s Finland and world is a de facto domicile language. The idea of making Swedish such also legistatively in Finland wouldn’t only reflect reality but it would stop much of the disproportionality relating to a 5% minority language being kept official country-wide alongside with a 94% majority language. To name some: disproportionate admission of students in the university and different admission standards, disproportionate distribution of office positions in the administration and e.g. health-care, disproportionate funding for Swedish-speaking media etc. etc. The constanty lower PISA results of Swedish-speaking pupils is but one example of the disadvantages for the linguistic groups and the entrire nation which may result from Finland’s current interpretation of multilingualism.
The idea of dropping the official status of Swedish in all of Finland doesn’t have to automatically mean that one discourages or diminishes a Swedish-speaking Finland either. The result may even be to the contrary as resources directed into supporting the Swedish language in Finland could be concentrated locally instead of having to spread them across the entire country. Something like this may result in strong Swedish-speaking domicile areas and even tip the scales more towards Swedish in bilingual families and municipalities.
The domicile officiality of Swedish would also make Sami domicile status more justifiable.
Of course Finland’s language issues are not straight-forward but may require a lot of painful rethinking and eye-opening in many directions and from many sides.
I dare to throw in a comparison and an other example from this weird wide world of ours. Tadjikistan has dropped Russian as an official language quite recently. Now, who may and who may not think that this act is particularly anti-Russian? Who may and who may not think that this act is a progressive step for the country? Who may and who may not think that this is just a natural step reflecting the changes that have occurred in the country and its surroundings?
Peace out.
Tuesday 4.10.11 at 10:24
Jonas
Hello again Anonymous,
There is next to no provision of services in Swedish outside of areas where Swedish-speakers live, with the exception perhaps of customer-facing operations (in the form of call centres) of state services, but most of these that have any kind of intensive level of service (e.g. FPA/Kela) locate their call centre somewhere in a bilingual area for obvious reasons (or in FPA’s case, there is actually a single Swedish call centre in Jakobstad).
The lower PISA results of Swedish-speaking pupils are a concern. But as I have posted here before, that seems largely down to the massive lack of specialist teaching in Swedish-speaking schools compared to Finnish. There has also been a problem of attracting good quality teachers in general, largely because of the localisation of Åbo akademi’s teaching programmes. Many people simply don’t want to travel so far. We need good quality teacher education in both Österbotten and the south. And PISA is not really the only benchmark, if you look at the results of Finnish qualifications, many Swedish-speaking upper secondary schools perform very well. If you look at their positioning, it would not suggest that bilingualism is a problem. The best performing schools are in the highly bilingual capital and even the language islands, the less well performing disproportionately in very heavily Swedish-speaking areas (Närpes, Nykarleby, Vörå for example). See: http://svenska.yle.fi/nyheter/sok.php?id=217074&lookfor=&sokvariant=arkivet&advanced=yes&antal=10
Much is made of the quotas for Swedish-speakers in certain subjects: I think this is over-exaggerated compared to the reality. Certainly it is true that 5% of medical places at Helsinki University are for people who demonstrate that they can speak Swedish to a sufficient level (NB not the same thing as being a Swedish-speaking Finn – 40% of the intake this year to the Swedish programme have Finnish as their mother tongue), but that is the only university in which medicine is (partially) taught in Swedish. Finnish-speakers have a greater choice of where to apply to. And ultimately, we need to ensure there are doctors to treat Swedish-speaking patients. You should also look at entrance stats for Åbo akademi and Hanken where respectively 16 and 18 percent of students are Finnish-speaking.
As for “disproportionate distribution of office positions in the administration”, I don’t understand that. Such jobs are not distributed according to background but ability.
By media, I assume you mean Yleisradio? Yes, it does cost more than 5% of the budget to provide a serious level of service in the Swedish language. I think it is a good thing we live in a progressive society that can see the value in this. We also have to recognise that public service broadcasting is more important on the Swedish side, as commercial services are less viable. For example, if YleX disappeared tomorrow, there are plenty of broadly equivalent commercial services. Should Radio Extrem go, there would be no domestic radio channel for Swedish-speaking young people. The same arguments are valid for newspaper support, where Swedish-speaking papers are often the “second” newspaper in a town and thus have a harder time in generating revenue from advertising.
Tuesday 13.3.12 at 17:01
Teemu
Katainen speaks English so poorly that I dread to think what sort of a state his Swedish must be in.